Need some help converting to E85

[tbaumann]

I hoping I can get some guidance from folks in the know.

I would like to move to E85 and from what I have read it creates more power and is safer then spraying alky because you do not need to worry about alky pump failure. My current setup is a 87 GN with a stock turbo, IC, free flowing exhaust, Walbro 340 pump, hot wire ,adjustable fp reg and scanmaster. I have ordered some motron 60 injectors an am looking at getting a chip from E85 Eric at TT.

I have a couple of key things I would like to accomplish
1> I would like to run straight E85 or close to straight E85 at about 20 to 25 lbs of boost but also be able to run 91-93 when E85 is unavailable. That said I will obviously I will need to remove boost when running 91-93. I am looking at getting a boost controller to make this easier. The unit I was looking at is the AEM TRU-BOOST Gauge-Type Controller AEM - TRU-BOOST Gauge-Type Controller . It is an electronic in car type.

What other adjustments will I need to make when moving to E85. Will Eric’s E85 chip have enough adjustments to take enough fuel and timing out to switch between E85 and 93? Are the 60’s big enough to get to 25 lbs?

2> The second thing I would like to do is be able to pull the boost down for when the wife gets behind the wheel or when there is a big ambient temperature change. Kind of the same question Will Eric’s E85 chip have enough adjustments to take enough fuel and timing out when adjusting the boost down to the 15 lb range?

Also will I need to go to a wide band?
What is involved in adding a WB and will I need a power logger?

I would really appreciate any help that anyone can provide.

 

[jdpolzin]

Well, I will start by saying to sell those 60's and get bigger injectors if you plan to run that high of boost. The best thing to do is to get a modded ECM and at least run a set of 95lb injectors. Those 60's are too small for E85 although they can be used with low boost. You dont want to lean that motor out. Modded ECM's can be had for around $200.

A wideband wont hurt but isnt necessary.

Eric's chip can be adjusted and you wont have a problem with his chips. He is the man!!! He is also very helpful if you have questions.

Make sure you at least run a HotWire kit with that 340 pump. It will be sufficient and it has been tried and true. If you plan to really go all out with the set up, I would get a bigger external pump and run larger lines. Not necessary until you step up to the next level.

You are going to love the E85, it's a tried and true fuel with major benefits to our cars!

 

[novaderrik]

you can get high impedance injectors up to about 120# these days, so there really isn't any reason to modify a perfectly good ecm any more.

 

[tbaumann]

Thanks for all of the help - I am just starting to get into playing with the E85 stuff and want to make sure that I have all of my ducks in a row. I do have a hot wire kit. I installed that with the Wallbro 340 pump last year.

I do not want to swap/mod the ECM, at this time, if I don't have to so with that said how many lbs of boost could i get from the size 60 injectors?

If I went to larger high impedence injectors (79lb) could I still take out enough fuel and spark to run 93 in a pinch?

I would also like to add a wide band air fuel ratio sensor. I sounds like this will make tuning easier. What is involved in adding a WB and will I need a power logger? or is a scanmaster 2.1 enough?

 

[87GN_70GS]

A single in-tank 340 will not supply enough fuel for more than 60# injectors at 100% duty cycle. You can get away with 65 # at 85-90% dc or 79# with 75% or less dc.

 

[jdpolzin]

A single in-tank 340 will not supply enough fuel for more than 60# injectors at 100% duty cycle. You can get away with 65 # at 85-90% dc or 79# with 75% or less dc.

I really dont think that is true. That may be the word that is spread but if you look at the A/F and the duty cycles, the two cars I have worked on have not had one problem. Now I do agree that a bigger pump is the correct way. On the other hand, I have a buddy running a stock replacement pump from the parts store with stock lines and 120's and has absolutely no problems at 15psi. Now we are changing to an external pump on that car but we ran it with no issues at all. Another buddy is running 95's with a modded ECM and a Reds single intank pump and 23 lbs of boost with no problem either. Looking at the data, you cant argue. I do think a safe way to run is with a killer Fuel system but the data proves against the normal talk. Talk with Eric Marshal, he will agree.

E85 is new to our cars and we are simply relying on what we hear from other cars that have been runnig E85 for a while. Most of these are V8's. Some Supras, some 4 cyl. Keep in mind most of the research when we first started applying this at the site was based off of hearsay. We need to learn more about tuning with this before we draw assumptions. I have seen many different set ups on our cars running E85 and I feel the single 340's are good for a mild tuned car on E85.

Another point to make is that when this first came about, we all though we would need stainless tank, stainless fuel rails, Stainless Filters, etc. This has been proven wrong.

 

[87GN_70GS]

a stock replacement pump from the parts store with stock lines and 120's and has absolutely no problems at 15psi

What is his duty cyle or injector pulsewidth? My guess is that it is relatively low.

Another buddy is running 95's with a modded ECM and a Reds single intank pump and 23 lbs of boost with no problem either

And what is his DC?

 

[jdpolzin]

What is his duty cyle or injector pulsewidth? My guess is that it is relatively low.



And what is his DC?

Not exaclty sure what their logs were but I know the stock pump with 120's had a duty cycle less than 40% at WOT 15 psi and the A/F stayed between 9.5 and 10.5. Thats what really suprised me. The car literally ran like a raped ape until the stock 85 trans finally let go. No fuel issues at all though! And the 95's with the Reds pump was around 60-65% at 23 psi.

I'm also trying to remember exact details but there was guy running 36lb injectors with around 15psi (again not exactly sre enough to quote) that was running at Cordova frequently. I'm sure his duty cycles were awfully high. I know he ran quite a bit with it that way until the motor finally let go. That may be a way for us to get a baseline and hopefully he will jump in and give us a bit more info.

The one thing that I'm starting to really use as eveidense of whether or not a pump will support certain injectors with stock lines is the A/F. The duty cycle only matters at WOT and set boost. The motor is only going to suck so much fuel at set boost. Then leave room for cushion. Then if the pump starts to drop off or is limited by fuel lines, the A/F starts to lean. I havent seen one run lean yet. The Reds pump isnt the best pump around and the stock replacement pump definately isnt great but both have run without failure with E85.

 

[bsdlinux]

I hoping I can get some guidance from folks in the know.

I would like to move to E85 and from what I have read it creates more power and is safer then spraying alky because you do not need to worry about alky pump failure. My current setup is a 87 GN with a stock turbo, IC, free flowing exhaust, Walbro 340 pump, hot wire ,adjustable fp reg and scanmaster. I have ordered some motron 60 injectors an am looking at getting a chip from E85 Eric at TT.

I have a couple of key things I would like to accomplish
1> I would like to run straight E85 or close to straight E85 at about 20 to 25 lbs of boost but also be able to run 91-93 when E85 is unavailable. That said I will obviously I will need to remove boost when running 91-93. I am looking at getting a boost controller to make this easier. The unit I was looking at is the AEM TRU-BOOST Gauge-Type Controller AEM - TRU-BOOST Gauge-Type Controller . It is an electronic in car type.

What other adjustments will I need to make when moving to E85. Will Eric’s E85 chip have enough adjustments to take enough fuel and timing out to switch between E85 and 93? Are the 60’s big enough to get to 25 lbs?

2> The second thing I would like to do is be able to pull the boost down for when the wife gets behind the wheel or when there is a big ambient temperature change. Kind of the same question Will Eric’s E85 chip have enough adjustments to take enough fuel and timing out when adjusting the boost down to the 15 lb range?

Also will I need to go to a wide band?
What is involved in adding a WB and will I need a power logger?

I would really appreciate any help that anyone can provide.

I have a similar setup in my White car as well, being that it is stock( turbo, IC , cam , etc ) .

My White daily driver car has 83s, modded ECM and a TT chip and I can kill a new M5 at 22 PSI of boost at about 24 degrees of timing, with a very stockish car. So you really don't need a sky is the limit fuel system. You just dont need anything other than a good upgraded pump, 79-83s injectors, stock fuel system to get to the low 11s with E-85. Yes you'll have to use about 30% precent more fuel BUT.. an E85 car typically will make about 15% more HP than the same car on 93 + alky. People have even went faster using E85 than race fuel. So depending on your goals you might not have to push the fuel system as hard as the math might point to, because of the extra power.

1. Make sure you have a nice upgraded pump - 340 would be fine for your current setup and like I said is good till somewhere in the low 11s on E-85. The White car has a Kirban upgraded pump and it has had no problems keeping up with the 83s.

2. Get some 79s so you dont have to mod your ECM

3. TT chip to match. Now here is where you can decide how fancy you want. I run a standard E85 street chip but Eric also has the new SD chips and can make you one for the wideband which would require a powerlogger or an ECM mod.
Again keeping it simple the standard chip comes with 20% WOT and 20% total fuel curve adjustment, Eric can probably give you more control, or you buy 2 chips like I have one 93 and one is E85. The reason Eric added the total fuel curve adjustment is so you can make changes based on the type of ethanol you get, E-70, E-85..etc

To change the subject just slightly - My GN has a MAFT pro which has +- 60% fueling so I can run anything thing I want. It also has the wideband option, set and forget it. A nice setup but it comes at a cost :biggrin:

4. Boost control. I have that AEM piece. I have not installed it yet but if memory serves me, you can make your default boost level anything you want, in your case the lower setting for your wife, so when she starts the car the boost controller resets to the default setting until you push the lil button :biggrin:

HTH

 

[87GN_70GS]

120's had a duty cycle less than 40% at WOT 15 psi

That's the same as a less than 48# injector at 100% duty cycle. At only 15psi I'll bet it was more like 25-30%. A 340 or smaller pump will handle those 120's just fine under that condition. A 340 will not be enough at 100% DC , simply doesn't have the volume, .

 

[87GN_70GS]

car has a Kirban upgraded pump and it has had no problems keeping up with the 83s.

I'll bet you're nowhere near 100% injector dc. If so, your fuel pressure would be dropping. My guess is 70% or less.

 

[87GN_70GS]

And the 95's with the Reds pump was around 60-65% at 23 psi.

Thats 57-62 #/hr at 100% dc, which is right at the limit for a single 340. Your real-world data backs up my original statement.

 

[bsdlinux]

I'll bet you're nowhere near 100% injector dc. If so, your fuel pressure would be dropping. My guess is 70% or less.

You would be correct. If I was running 100% my car would be cracking into the 10s and it would be time to upgrade the whole damn fuel system, which is excatly what I'll be doing when the GN gets 120s and I get serious.

You make good points, however the wrong thread for this discussion. So back to the original topic:

tbaumann - wants to know what he needs to do to run E-85.. Me and others have given him some very good advice considering his setup. I stand by the recommendations I have given him, they are sound and will work well into the 11s.

We are talking about entry level E-85 here. Next level would be bigger lines and injectors, external pump.

 

[BlackoutDrunk]

you can get high impedance injectors up to about 120# these days, so there really isn't any reason to modify a perfectly good ecm any more.

Where did you see High Impedance 120's? I'm interested and I might be going E85 next year.

 

[87GN_70GS]

Apologies for de-railing the conversation. Rest of the discussion was moved to here:

http://www.turbobuick.com/forums/ge...h/280343-fulep-pump-injector-cheat-sheet.html

 

[novaderrik]

Where did you see High Impedance 120's? I'm interested and I might be going E85 next year.

i can't remember where i saw them. if i was in the market for them, i would have bookmarked it.
it's also possible that i was misremembering something i saw months ago.

 

[jdpolzin]

Thats 57-62 #/hr at 100% dc, which is right at the limit for a single 340. Your real-world data backs up my original statement.

Where is your info for this? So the gas guys run 83's could not possibly run a 340?????? Hmmm???? There are a lot of guys that are really screwing up their cars out there.

 

[jdpolzin]

That's the same as a less than 48# injector at 100% duty cycle. At only 15psi I'll bet it was more like 25-30%. A 340 or smaller pump will handle those 120's just fine under that condition. A 340 will not be enough at 100% DC , simply doesn't have the volume, .

Ok I would agree that that pump wouldnt hold at 100% duty cycle but......... This is at WOT, the car will never reach anywhere near 100% duty cycle at 15 psi. So, his pump supports his current set up. EXACTLY WHAT I AM TRYING TO SAY!! If the original poster has a simple set up, there is no reason to go all out and crazy with his fuel system.

 

[tbaumann]

We are talking about entry level E-85 here.

You are right when you say I am interested in an enrty level E85 seup. I am not looking to drop into the 10 second mark, at least not just yet. Maybe once in drink the e85 cool-aid I won't be able to stop myself . I will need to beef other things up once I start getting close. For now I am looking at E85 or close to straight E85 at about 20 to 25 lbs and the mid 12's
It sound like Eric's chip will let me bounce between E85 and 93 when the good stuff (E85) is not available.

How many lbs of boost could I get from the size 60 injectors running E85? I already have the 60's so I would like to try them.

If not do go to the 79# high impedance. That is the highest I could find out there.

How far will the 340 pump and stock fuel lines take me? Will they support 79# injectors at 20 - 25 lbs of boost??

I sound like if I go larger than 79's I will need to move to a bigger pump or add a duel in-tank setup will I need to upgrade my stock fuel lines??

 

[jdpolzin]

You are right when you say I am interested in an enrty level E85 seup. I am not looking to drop into the 10 second mark, at least not just yet. Maybe once in drink the e85 cool-aid I won't be able to stop myself . I will need to beef other things up once I start getting close. For now I am looking at E85 or close to straight E85 at about 20 to 25 lbs and the mid 12's
It sound like Eric's chip will let me bounce between E85 and 93 when the good stuff (E85) is not available.

How many lbs of boost could I get from the size 60 injectors running E85? I already have the 60's so I would like to try them.

If not do go to the 79# high impedance. That is the highest I could find out there.

How far will the 340 pump and stock fuel lines take me? Will they support 79# injectors at 20 - 25 lbs of boost??

I sound like if I go larger than 79's I will need to move to a bigger pump or add a duel in-tank setup will I need to upgrade my stock fuel lines??

If you would like a little more info, PM ONEFASTGN. He was just in your exact same shoes. He ran 60's for a short time then jumped up to 83's with a single intank pump and runs 20-25psi with zero problems. He also runs a TT chip. He does have a modded ECM though. Maybe a good piece of info to talk with him! -----Jeremy