viperkiler
New Member
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- Aug 18, 2002
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k&n air,36#bluetops,7 setting multichip,t49 turbo,275 60 15 bfgs,2 airbags,pinion snubber,307 walbro fuel pmp,fuel reg,scanmaster,adj wastegate,10mm mag wires,is there anything missing?
new recipe for 11s
- Thread starter viperkiler
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With 36s, good luck.
You can about peg 55s with a stock turbo.
I know, I know, so and so did it, ya well, run em static, and just wonder why it takes so much effort to get enough fuel to the motor, and hope you don't blow too many head gaskets in the mean time.
If you want tunability, then get a Translator Plus.
Yep, speed costs money how fast ya want to go.
And you need a decent exhaust, and possibly better tires. An 11 takes a good 60' time, or LOTS of HP.
Traction needs to be addressed (see all the Recipes on http://www.gnttype.org)... if the BFGs are drag radials, then you should be good.
As far as 36# injectors not being enough, I have to disagree, having personally helped many cars use them deep into the 11s without any outrageous fuel pressures or anything. High 11s, no problem ... mid 11s, base fuel pressure starts getting in the 50# range or (assuming Red's 107 chip).
Just as a specific example ... Robi and Barry Campbell at the '96 Nationals. Blue tops on their T and stock turbo ... couldn't get out of the 12.50s/60s @ 108 (chip they had was too rich). They got a deal on a TA49, we installed it, next day went 12.0 @110 with a soft boost setting/to RICH. A little tweak here and there netted some 11.80s by the end of the day at 113-114. Then they drove the car all the way back to Arizona! Gotta love these cars!
As far as 36# injectors not being enough, I have to disagree, having personally helped many cars use them deep into the 11s without any outrageous fuel pressures or anything. High 11s, no problem ... mid 11s, base fuel pressure starts getting in the 50# range or (assuming Red's 107 chip).
Just as a specific example ... Robi and Barry Campbell at the '96 Nationals. Blue tops on their T and stock turbo ... couldn't get out of the 12.50s/60s @ 108 (chip they had was too rich). They got a deal on a TA49, we installed it, next day went 12.0 @110 with a soft boost setting/to RICH. A little tweak here and there netted some 11.80s by the end of the day at 113-114. Then they drove the car all the way back to Arizona! Gotta love these cars!
Hook up a WB, and get back to me.
Once you actually see what's going on things take on a whole new perspective.
If you looked at enough chips, you'd laugh at what you'd see, once you knew what the WB was telling you.
Like I said, you can go static, and add octane, and just hope things don't bite you. Hellva way to go when for about the same price you could have the option of getting it right.
Did you look at the thread about the DS in the Scanner area?.
It's at least interesting.
Your going to need a dump or a good exhaust, and a gutted cat or test pipe. Only one airbag will be fine. A thrasher 108 "static" with TCC lockup is $25 and should work as good if not better than a "7 setting multichip".
You are also missing a boost gage from the list. Two things that make 11's a lot easier (together they can add up to .3 seconds and 4 mph is a big neck for the stock intercooler and a 3" downpipe like a Terry Houston.
As for bluetops not running 11's. Look at my timeslips page and believe what you want to believe. (90K+ mile motor and no engine damage as the result of running 11's with bluetops)
Re: WB?
Sorry,
WB is for Wide Band.
While the original O2 sensors are narrow bands, there is another version called wide bands. The NB just switch from rich to lean at an Air Fuel Ratio of 14.7:1, while the Wide Bands allow you to accurately see from 10.5:1 to 20:1 AFR.
Sorry,
WB is for Wide Band.
While the original O2 sensors are narrow bands, there is another version called wide bands. The NB just switch from rich to lean at an Air Fuel Ratio of 14.7:1, while the Wide Bands allow you to accurately see from 10.5:1 to 20:1 AFR.
Re: Re: new recipe for 11s
And are the injectors Static?.
That's the point, at least I'm trying to make. The guys that actually engineer this stuff, suggest how it should be used, and I for one happen to believe what they would suggest. They say a max of 85-90% DC, and also after running my own tests and seeing they are right, what is WRONG with just following sound engineering?.
If running fast with small injectors is the point, why not just get some Syclone injectors, and start running some 100 PSI F/P's and go that route?. On the syty list they did some tests and Kinsler found they were linear up to like 120 PSI. You can double check the archives at syty.org if you want to double check me.
And are the injectors Static?.
That's the point, at least I'm trying to make. The guys that actually engineer this stuff, suggest how it should be used, and I for one happen to believe what they would suggest. They say a max of 85-90% DC, and also after running my own tests and seeing they are right, what is WRONG with just following sound engineering?.
If running fast with small injectors is the point, why not just get some Syclone injectors, and start running some 100 PSI F/P's and go that route?. On the syty list they did some tests and Kinsler found they were linear up to like 120 PSI. You can double check the archives at syty.org if you want to double check me.
Bruce, I respect your knowledge in this area, but I'm telling you ... look at the results. It's been done ... many, many, many, many times.
Real world ... not on the bench.... maybe it's not the way you approve of, but it's hard to argue with timeslips. In my opinion (and we all know what opinions are worth!
) it's safe to do high 11s in that trim for hundreds of passes (and can point to several high mileage examples that have done it). Like anything else, if you screw up, you might hurt it (regardless what your combination is), but with some attention to detail, it works.
I've had cars similar this on the chassis dyno WITH A HORIBA WB O2 sensor and they were fine. Case in point, Chuck Strader's T-Type ... 009s ... fuel pressure in the upper 40s ... Horiba reporting between 11.5 and 12.0:1 (as we fiddled).
Car made >475 rwhp (hard to tell exactly, kept smoking the tires on the rollers even with two people sitting in the trunk ...). This car has been 10.90s at 123+ MPH at 3500# weight.
Again, not arguing with having some "head room" with 55# injectors, but also you have to realize not everyone has access to the type of resources you do.
Real world ... not on the bench.... maybe it's not the way you approve of, but it's hard to argue with timeslips. In my opinion (and we all know what opinions are worth!
) it's safe to do high 11s in that trim for hundreds of passes (and can point to several high mileage examples that have done it). Like anything else, if you screw up, you might hurt it (regardless what your combination is), but with some attention to detail, it works.I've had cars similar this on the chassis dyno WITH A HORIBA WB O2 sensor and they were fine. Case in point, Chuck Strader's T-Type ... 009s ... fuel pressure in the upper 40s ... Horiba reporting between 11.5 and 12.0:1 (as we fiddled).
Car made >475 rwhp (hard to tell exactly, kept smoking the tires on the rollers even with two people sitting in the trunk ...). This car has been 10.90s at 123+ MPH at 3500# weight.
Again, not arguing with having some "head room" with 55# injectors, but also you have to realize not everyone has access to the type of resources you do.
Re: How much $$$?
Here @ Ramchargers
This one is $1099. There are also insturctions to build one yourself around the net somewhere.. Pretty cheap in comparison.
Here @ Ramchargers
This one is $1099. There are also insturctions to build one yourself around the net somewhere.. Pretty cheap in comparison.
I prolly have 100 time slips when I had my TA-49 and Bluetops at 45 base fuel pressure and all runs in the 11.6-12.0 range around 112+ mph using Red's 100 chip and 110 octane.....single 340 pump....stock heads.....there are at least 2 other local cars that did the same
it isn't magic, and I cannot imagine that just lowering the duty cycle on an injector when the same amount of fuel is being delivered matters a bit.......BTW, the few times I bothered to look at duty cycle, they were in the high 80's to low 90's
just the real world....no science behind it.....so I can't prove a thing (except for the timeslips....)
it isn't magic, and I cannot imagine that just lowering the duty cycle on an injector when the same amount of fuel is being delivered matters a bit.......BTW, the few times I bothered to look at duty cycle, they were in the high 80's to low 90's
just the real world....no science behind it.....so I can't prove a thing (except for the timeslips....)
Mr URL
Member
- Joined
- May 24, 2001
- Messages
- 686
Re: Re: new recipe for 11s
Tons of people have gone mid 11's on 36's. Yeah, it's pushing them but yes it's possible. Thousands of runs I'm sure from the people that have done it.
Stock turbo about pegs 55's??? I don't think so. Never seen a stock turbo in the deep 10's before. Stock turbo wouldn't even put a dent in 50's let alone 55's. Stock turbo combo with 55's could prove to be a chip programming nightmare trying to back off the fuel.
I do agree that you should have big enough injectors in the car to not be pushing them to the max. Shooting for no more than ~80% gives you safety room. Yeah, you can push beyond that but giving yourself some breathing room isn't a bad idea. Going too big however could prove hard to tune also. Fine line. One injector size larger than needed for goal if you have the cash.
I agree a wide band O2 shows you a lot more but I do disagree the stock O2 is absolutely worthless. It's better than nothing and doesn't cost $1,000. More cost effective method for most is the stock 02 sensor, EGT, and scantool. Yep, I do agree there are probably a lot of people that do not have an exact tuned chip for their cars. Probably close - but not perfect. I believe there is a lot of hp left in cars just in chip programming and tuning. Most people don't take the time to get it perfect. It takes more than one try to get it exact from my experience. I've dropped over a second in time just from chip changes and tuning.
Tons of people have gone mid 11's on 36's. Yeah, it's pushing them but yes it's possible. Thousands of runs I'm sure from the people that have done it.
Stock turbo about pegs 55's??? I don't think so. Never seen a stock turbo in the deep 10's before. Stock turbo wouldn't even put a dent in 50's let alone 55's. Stock turbo combo with 55's could prove to be a chip programming nightmare trying to back off the fuel.
I do agree that you should have big enough injectors in the car to not be pushing them to the max. Shooting for no more than ~80% gives you safety room. Yeah, you can push beyond that but giving yourself some breathing room isn't a bad idea. Going too big however could prove hard to tune also. Fine line. One injector size larger than needed for goal if you have the cash.
I agree a wide band O2 shows you a lot more but I do disagree the stock O2 is absolutely worthless. It's better than nothing and doesn't cost $1,000. More cost effective method for most is the stock 02 sensor, EGT, and scantool. Yep, I do agree there are probably a lot of people that do not have an exact tuned chip for their cars. Probably close - but not perfect. I believe there is a lot of hp left in cars just in chip programming and tuning. Most people don't take the time to get it perfect. It takes more than one try to get it exact from my experience. I've dropped over a second in time just from chip changes and tuning.
Funny.... that's the exact combo that our guy's out here have been running for years, right down to the Red's 100 chip. Weird how the results are exactly the same too. Coincidence???
I went a littel different route with the chip but still managed 11.79 @ 116 mph before I upgraded to 50's.But why play with fire?.
Look at the number of folks blowing head gaskets around here.
You want to play around, running static, that's fine, feel right at home, but NOT EVERYONE should play that game.
Just tell me of one advantage of running the 36s.
Not that so and so did it, but one sound logic reason to use em. If you only reason is saving a couple bucks on them, well that's hardly a reason, IMO.
Re: How much $$$?
Look here,
WWW.DIY-WB.COM
$25 in parts some soldering, and $130 sensor.
Nice 40 element display is about $40, again more soldering.
Look here,
WWW.DIY-WB.COM
$25 in parts some soldering, and $130 sensor.
Nice 40 element display is about $40, again more soldering.
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