new recipe for 11s

[hot6-231]

Re: Re: new recipe for 11s

Originally posted by bruce


With 36s, good luck.
You can about peg 55s with a stock turbo.
I know, I know, so and so did it, ya well, run em static, and just wonder why it takes so much effort to get enough fuel to the motor, and hope you don't blow too many head gaskets in the mean time.
If you want tunability, then get a Translator Plus.
Yep, speed costs money how fast ya want to go.

And you need a decent exhaust, and possibly better tires. An 11 takes a good 60' time, or LOTS of HP.

Hmmm................I must be doing something right, after HOUNDREDS of quarter mile blasts I have'nt blown ONE headgasket!! It's called TUNING. Don't blame it on a proven injector..........Just my 2c.

 

[Kansas T]

I have to agreee with bruce on this one. I had blue tops in my car for a short while and for me they were no better than stockers. I couldnt safely run 11's with them. I went with 50's and that cured my high egt, lean problem, and detonation problems.

 

[bruce]

Originally posted by kenmosher

Up until recently, the 36s were a VERY good combo for a mostly street car that could bust off an 11 at the strip. It looks like the 009s (and to some extent the 50s) are pretty well sorted out now too.

There are many high 12 second/105 mph cars that are running 55# injectors and fighting driveabilty problems and unable to go faster (again, you aren't a typical case ... you have access to a programmable ROM, commented source code, WB O2, etc. etc. etc.). Those are usually the guys blowing headgaskets too... I'd contend it's more approach than the actual parts. Heck, some folks can break a box of hammers!

Until someone releases a 55# chip (and the ECM mod) for the stock turbo setup, they are better off having some 36# injectors and the proper chip to use them. They just will be happier, in my experience, since it's pretty much "plug 'n play".

Hate to ruin your day, but the extender 55 gives you excellent drivibility, and since you need the Translator Plus, you get to be able to fine tune the fuel and timing.
With the tunibility of the MEs they prolly would be an option too.

I got 55s running just peachy on a stock ecm'd, stock engine'd, stock turbo car. Also a launch assist just using the stock code.

While yes I use a ROMless ecm in my car, that's only been since no one else has wanted to try it. At one time I was wanting to share the info., and figured 2-3 people working on it would make it a slam dunk to do. But, all folks seem happy to do is plug and play.

And you wonder why folks don't share?.
Why should they?.
Develope an idea, and tell folks how to use it, and all you get is replies of naa, I don't THINK that will work, when in fact they just don't think anyway.

If you and so many others want to stay happy with status que, fine, just remember that in 5 years when things are still the same.

Getting to be really sad when someone does do something new, so many folks are so set in their ways that they mindlessly make negative comments, when they have no concept of what they're even talking about, case in point read up on the Propane Thread. Then do some reasearch and see what's actually going on, when you do use propane.

 

[GNandGS]

Hrrm... well, ok

Ive seen the magical BT's not be enough injector on unopened engines with larger turbos - more than once, one with a 44. Personally I consider them a stock replacement and wouldnt bother with them. "Easily"? heh. Some things cannot be explained I guess but having seen a little of what Bruce is talking about, I would say:

"BT's are a fine injector but for safe, repeatable, and yes EASY 11's while using a larger turbo, one should step up on injector size." Not everyone cuts a good 60' or has access to a good track. If speaking with blanket statements I dont promise anyone that BT's are the hot ticket with larger turbos.

I dont think I like any of the 4x sized injectors either. Not one car locally has decent numbers for part throttle/idle/cruise. If idle is right, something else is off. Pick yer vendor they all do it. Personally, since I dont run them, it doesnt matter to me - but when you have tuning issues for say part throttle the gooroos ask for data. Same gooroos dismiss the data if the car seems to "run ok". If I cant fix it, and I cant, the customer is stuck.

Screw all that, move to the 50's. I DO agree it CAN be done with less. For whatever reason though, some cars just need a little more... Im talkin' "easily" "safely" blahblahblah there are a lot of variables.

BTW what is the flow diff from the BT and 868's? Anyone have hard data on that?

Shawn
"I have my asbestos underwear on"

 

[azgn]

yes Bruce, my car always has race gas in it....not driven much on the street, but driven to and from the track (100 mile roundtrip)

so, you are right, use the WB for tuning and remove it the rest of the time (lots of fun....)

and no, I am not "grinding" on using smaller injectors, just pointing out my experiences with Bluetops.....with the chips that are available these days, one would certainly start with 50's and more logically 55's

you have not broken any "new" ground with your big injector ideas......what has happened is the chip technology and injector availability has improved to the point where smaller injectors are moot!

 

[kenmosher]

Originally posted by bruce


Hate to ruin your day, but the extender 55 gives you excellent drivibility, and since you need the Translator Plus, you get to be able to fine tune the fuel and timing.

<*shrug*> You didn't ruin my day ... I don't know why you are launching an attack. I wasn't saying that what you did is WRONG... what I'm trying to point out is that not everyone can duplicate what YOU do! You have an enormous wealth of data that you have used to make CUSTOM calibrations for the cars that you are working with. You have the MAF mounted next to the TB, ROMless ECM, plenum with extra volume, etc. ... you have all sorts of neat gadgets and ideas.

Great. Now ... what does Joe Blow do? You aren't selling that technology ... you don't seem to want to really work with anyone that doesn't have access to all the toys you do ... so I guess the majority of us are just out of luck? Sure we can use a Translator and 55s, but I contend that it isn't what you are doing ...

I got 55s running just peachy on a stock ecm'd, stock engine'd, stock turbo car. Also a launch assist just using the stock code.

Not to belabor the point, but where do the rest of us get that? Again, you (and a few others) have a unique talent to get that all to come together (with hours and hours of research and development). The average TR owner (IMHO) buys stuff from a vendor and then puts it to use.... they don't want to do the R&D, instead they'd rather do the fine tuning. If the Translator+ and 55s are the hot ticket, then fine ... I'm just enough out of the loop that I was unaware of it. Are there folks using the off the shelf stuff and going really fast with it? Not being a smart aleck here, I just want to hear some experiences to learn ...

And you wonder why folks don't share?.
Why should they?.
Develope an idea, and tell folks how to use it, and all you get is replies of naa, I don't THINK that will work, when in fact they just don't think anyway.

That disappoints me Bruce ... I've had contact with you for many years and have admired the things you've accomplished. You're a bigger man than that ... there are always naysayers ... but you have to differentiate that from those that have differing IDEAS. You seem to have very little tolerance for those of us that have a steeper learning curve, or don't have the kind of time to really do the level of investigation that you do. Just my observation ... maybe I'm wrong, but I know that I'm a bit intimidated sometimes, since it seems that a question or alternate idea seems to not be well received by you.

If you and so many others want to stay happy with status que, fine, just remember that in 5 years when things are still the same.

...and where did I say that? I even concurred that 55# injectors are a good idea.... all I did was point out that there was another way to get there (ala blue tops). And BTW, it works and has worked. Just because it's not "new" doesn't mean it doesn't work ...

Getting to be really sad when someone does do something new, so many folks are so set in their ways that they mindlessly make negative comments, when they have no concept of what they're even talking about, case in point read up on the Propane Thread. Then do some reasearch and see what's actually going on, when you do use propane.

I really don't see the comments as negative (or mindless, for that matter)... just alternate ideas and experiences. It's really sad that you see them as negative and dismiss the real world experiences that exist.... if alternative ideas are such a bad thing, maybe you'd like to give a class on how to do it "the right way"? I haven't seen anything that leads me to believe you'd care to teach the unwashed rabble like myself ... although I'd be a willing student.

 

[Grumpy]

ahhhhh mornin guys ......Bruce I have been "playing" with Buicks since 86 .....ya its my job....most of my customers dont want to "play" with thier cars....they want a tried an true no brainer to have fun with....an like Ken said we all dont have your "resorces" ....5 years down the road we will all probably be restoring these old cars that have never been "raced" an guys will be lookin for "original tag " stock chips

 

[BEATAV8]

I agree with the bigger injector is better philosophy 100%. It doesn't make sense to me to run 36lb or even 009 injectors so far out of spec with 100%+ duty cycle and high fuel pressure just to squeek in a few 11 second runs. It's not a good idea to leave the car that way. The injectors chatter and the coils get hot, the high fuel pressure causes erratic spray patterns, the BLM's in the ECM get wound way down, and the driveability can suffer. Most injectors are spec'd and rated to run 80% max and 43.5 PSI fuel. That's the way they oughta be used.

My goal is to set the car to run 11's with the only "change" at the track being the bolting up of the slicks.

Trans + /Extender
55's
43-44 PSI fuel pressure all the time
100 octane no lead all the time (so my O2 will live forever)
24 PSI boost all the time
22 degrees timing all the time

I have no desire to go and run 11's at the track with 110 octane, high timing and small injectors (the typical 11sec 36lb recipe), just to detune in order to drive the car home on pump gas and get spanked by a supra TT on the way.

For reference: I just bought a set of brand new 55's for $369. The ECM driver mod was only $125.

 

[UNGN]

Originally posted by MJRWOOD
I agree with the bigger injector is better philosophy 100%. It doesn't make sense to me to run 36lb or even 009 injectors so far out of spec with 100%+ duty cycle and high fuel pressure just to squeek in a few 11 second runs. It's not a good idea to leave the car that way. The injectors chatter and the coils get hot, the high fuel pressure causes erratic spray patterns, the BLM's in the ECM get wound way down, and the driveability can suffer. Most injectors are spec'd and rated to run 80% max and 43.5 PSI fuel. That's the way they oughta be used.

My goal is to set the car to run 11's with the only "change" at the track being the bolting up of the slicks.

Trans + /Extender
55's
43-44 PSI fuel pressure all the time
100 octane no lead all the time (so my O2 will live forever)
24 PSI boost all the time
22 degrees timing all the time

I have no desire to go and run 11's at the track with 110 octane, high timing and small injectors (the typical 11sec 36lb recipe), just to detune in order to drive the car home on pump gas and get spanked by a supra TT on the way.

For reference: I just bought a set of brand new 55's for $369. The ECM driver mod was only $125.

Huh? Are you telling me that the above combo runs 11's with unported stock heads? Let's see some timeslips.

FWIW I ran my 11.53@118 with blue tops at a whopping huge 47 psi of fuel pressure and 23 psi of boost (which was really pushing my walbro 307 ) using a $25 chip and a set of Bluetops I bought for $200 and sold for $200.

No translator +, No extender, no ECM mods, No guru chip tuning... and lots of money left over to spend on important things, like my kid.

 

[Night Train]

Just to further the point, 4+ years ago, my car ran 12.0@110 with 33# injectors and 23#s of boost. Yes it was knocking through the traps, but the heads have still never been off the car. This was done on slicks and skinnies mounted on Weld Drag Lites with a JC chip for Blue tops and ATR 3" DP and single exhaust. I'm sure with a little tuning, it would have hit 11.9999, but opted for larger injectors, probably helping keep the heads still on the car.

Bob

 

[GNandGS]

ET isnt related to the inj in this context/thread... didnt I kinda say that already?

Safe and reliable 11's that are also repeatable shouldnt include the 60' as part of the "guarantee".

"Huh, what do you mean? You dont even run 11's what do you know anyway."

What I mean is that the repeatable 11.80 car is a 12sec car in Wichita... also, look at BT MPH numbers that are, ahem, "safe and repeatable" and what do you see?

When you speak in blanket statements things get dicey. No, not everyone can run over 1xxMPH consistantly with BT's. Ive seen it! What MPH do you need on BT's to hit 11's when the 60' times arent that great? At what altitude?

Can folks do it with less? Sure. Some cars do and have no problem but just because they can and do doesnt mean there is something wrong with the next guys car if he cant! Maybe he has 3-400lb more weight?

I just feel kinda burned (and I didnt even buy them) for all those guys that were told, "its all you need" when it wasnt. This line of thinking says stock inj should go 112+ for everyone

Shawn