You can type here any text you want

oil pump question

Welcome!

By registering with us, you'll be able to discuss, share and private message with other members of our community.

SignUp Now!
wow, i didnt realise i needed a physics professor to help with my TR motor. LOL, maybe i should consult NASA for my oiling issues. (i feel like i opened a can of worms here) but i thank u guys for your intuitive insights. u all have very good points, i'm still stumped. i'll prob. just blueprint stock pump and leave it to the turbo gods to protect my engine
 
sorry we kinda hijacked your thread MB :) It happens when you start talking oil system mods on turbo buicks, everyone has their own opinion...

Here's my advice to you:
- stock length oil pump gears
- port the heck out of the oil passages in the timing cover. Do a search on Earl Brown's oil pump recipe, it's actually over on the other site, but it has a lot of good pictures and descriptions
- port a couple of places in the block that you can reach.
First is where oil comes into the block from the timing chain cover, by the oil pressure gauge sender hole:
before: http://pages.prodigy.net/buickv6/CarStuff/oil to block unported1.JPG
http://pages.prodigy.net/buickv6/CarStuff/oil to block unported2.JPG
after:
http://pages.prodigy.net/buickv6/CarStuff/oil to block ported1.JPG
http://pages.prodigy.net/buickv6/CarStuff/oil to block ported2.JPG
Second is behind the passenger side cam plug on the front of the block:
before:
http://pages.prodigy.net/buickv6/CarStuff/behind plug unported1.JPG
http://pages.prodigy.net/buickv6/CarStuff/behind plug unported2.JPG
after:
http://pages.prodigy.net/buickv6/CarStuff/behind plug ported1.JPG
http://pages.prodigy.net/buickv6/CarStuff/behind plug ported2.jpg
Those are the places that are relatively easy to get to, and so are worthwhile doing in my opinion.

- Drilling out the #2 and #3 mains is just another "port" job in my mind. Totally optional. I think it's a good idea, but lots and lots of really fast buicks out there that haven't done it. Like I said before, I did it, but only to 5/16" and not to the full 3/8" some people have done.

- Get the RJC biggie oil filter adapter for the front cover so you can use the big block buick oil filter, which has a lot less pressure drop than the stock GN filters

- Lots of arguments about whether or not to block off the oil filter bypass. I've done it, but wouldn't recommend it to anyone who hasn't fully educated themselves on the topic and understands what you have to do to make it work. Me, I like that fact that all my oil goes through my filter all the time.

- I like the Ruggles/Kenne-Bell style booster plate, as opposed to the parts house version. I wonder if you can still buy those anywhere... If not, parts house version to give you a nice surface for the gears to ride on is a good idea if your pump cover is worn.

- TA perf sells a shim kit to help get your gear to pump cover clearances just right. That's assuming the gears aren't sunk too far into the timing chain cover. Makes pump setup easy.

- high quality cam bearings are a must! TA Perf has some good ones, and there are some teflon coated ones that a lot of people like. All the oil into the engine goes by the #1 cam bearings before it goes anywhere else, and that bearing has a tendency to wear, esp. with aftermarket cams that are grooved on the #1 journal. Wear at that point opens up the #1 cam bearing clearances, and increased oil leakage there starves everything else. Probably more important on a street engine that will see a lot of miles than a race engine. Definitely a longevity thing in my mind.

- check and trim gaskets as needed, make sure they don't hang over the edge of the oil passages.

There's a few other little tricks and tips, but that's what comes to mind right now. Hope that helps.

John
 
What happens when you flow coolant fast through a radiator/engine block? There is no heat transfer. What happens when the air passes through an intercooler too fast? The intercooler can't cooler the air.

I'm sorry, but I totally disagree. I've heard that said many many times, and it just can't be right. As I mentioned before, industrial heat transfer is one of the things I deal with professionally. Higher velocities through a heat exchanger (such as an intercooler or a radiator) always improve heat transfer. I guess this argument should be saved for another thread, but I just can't help myself :) Now do I believe that higher flows result in higher temperatures? Sure, that makes sense, I can explain that a few different ways. But what I think has happened is that someone took out their thermostat, saw a higher temperature, looked for an explanation, and came up with "not enough time in the radiator to cool off the water". And they came to the wrong conclusion, and it got repeated enough times to become the common wisdom and everybody believed it. Notice I'm not arguing with the result, that they saw a higher temperature, just the reason why there was a higher temperature.

Same applies to the bearings, increase the pressure, you will have more flow across/through the bearings. There will be no transfer of heat when the crank spins. And the bearing heat up.

Now this is something I don't have any professional experience with, but my intuition tells me that it might not be the higher flow that is the problem, but maybe it's the increased turning resistance of the crank. Like that other link you posted mentioned, and their example of trying to run through a bool of water vs a pool of honey. If there is more resistance to the crank turning then more heat is generated due to the increased friction. So if the additional cooling provided by the higher oil flow is less than the extra heat generated by the increased friction, then the bearing temperature would go up. That explanation would make sense to me. A lot more sense than saying the higher flow can't carry away the heat, which doesn't feel right. Not saying that this is the mechanism involved, just a hypothesis. It might be something else. Again, not saying that the bearing temperatures don't go up, I'm just looking for a reason that makes sense to me.


Nice link, I totally agree with the whole thing :) Their talk on cavitation is what I am familiar with - pump suctions, and the resulting pump damage when the bubbles collapse. No mention there of bubbles on the pressure side of the system. BTW, to me, that subject leads me over to PCV systems. Contamination of the oil directionally pushes you towards a cavitation problem, more gasoline and such in the oil will increase its tendency to form bubbles in the pump suction. Having a functioning PCV, and pulling a decent vacuum on the crankcase, will help vaporize that crap, and degas the oil, helping to reduce the tendency of the oil to make bubbles in the pump suction.

On pump types, sure, gerotor much better than our style pumps :) Here's a thought: our pumps, with the straight cut gears, are functionally equivalent to a Roots blower, which also are known for their low efficiency. If someone made oil pump gears with a twist to them, or made an actual compressor type lobe (think Eaton twin screw type supercharger) our pumps would get a LOT more efficient. That would be sweet... just pop the old straight gears out and slide the new twisted gears in. Probably cost too much to make though. I'd buy it if it was available! A lot simpler than welding two timing covers together to get the 3800 gerotor pump.

This stuff is getting too complex.:(

naw, this is fun ain't it? :)

John
 
Higher velocities through a heat exchanger (such as an intercooler or a radiator) always improve heat transfer.

John

Hm.... everyone says the F-body radiator swap is a good idea because it is a single core but the tubes are much bigger, so the coolant passes through slower and thus has more time to have cool air rushing past it. :confused:
 
arent f-body radiator's aluminum? any way u guys are comparing liquid to air (or air to air) coolers to oil cooling metal. apples to oranges IMO. if u have red hot steel which will cool it faster, cold dripping water or say a garden hose flow of cold water? think about it.
 
Hm.... everyone says the F-body radiator swap is a good idea because it is a single core but the tubes are much bigger, so the coolant passes through slower and thus has more time to have cool air rushing past it. :confused:

Sure, "everyone says", everyone says lots of things :) There are lots of potential reasons why that radiator might cool well. Just replacing an old rad with a new one could be a reason. A different fin count, allowing more air flow through the radiator could be another. Not saying that is it, since I don't know the respective fin counts, but some reason like that can explain it. Bigger tubes and lower velocities are usually worse for heat transfer, but if they put turbulators in the tubes that can get it all back by improving the heat transfer coefficient. Or maybe the core is thinner, which gives more air flow for the same fin count, again cooling better. Or maybe they've got a thinner core with a denser fin count for more heat transfer area with the same air flow. Or, with the larger internal cross sectional area, and therefore lower pressure drop, the actual flow through the system might actually be higher than it was before (ie, less resistance to flow allows the water pump to pump more), and the higher flow is what is cooling things better.

Point is, it could be lots of things, things that make sense, while attributing it to slower moving fluid does not make sense. But since "everyone" seems to think slowing things down improves heat transfer, it's easy for "them" to say that is the reason.

John
 
Slowing down the coolant flow inside a radiator will cause it to cool the fluid more providing the air flowing across the outside stays at the same speed.

If you speed up the coolant flow it will not cool it as good if the air flowing across the outside stays at the same speed.
 
Slowing down the coolant flow inside a radiator will cause it to cool the fluid more providing the air flowing across the outside stays at the same speed.

If you speed up the coolant flow it will not cool it as good if the air flowing across the outside stays at the same speed.

Well, depends on what you mean by "cooling it more". If you say you have a given radiator, and a given air flow and air temperature, and a constant coolant inlet temperature, then yes, slowing the coolant flow down (ie you have fewer gpm of coolant going through the radiator) will result in a colder outlet temperature. But it also means that the total BTUs of heat rejected is lower.

A higher coolant flow rate will result in a higher outlet temperature, but also more BTUs rejected to the air. And really, you are trying to get the most BTU rejection you can. Reject more BTUs and the engine itself must run cooler.

You can pinch back the coolant flow until the radiator outlet temperature is 85F, but that doesn't help cool the engine itself. Pinch the flow back that much and the block and heads will overheat. And flip that around, if you have a higher flow with a higher radiator outlet temp you might actually be keeping the metal in the heads and block cooler than a lower flow/lower rad outlet temperature setup.

Anyway, the point is, don't confuse temperatures with actual energy transferred to the air.

John
 
Back
Top