? on soft pedal on PM install-brake pedal rod?

I wouldn't send that acc back just yet. If your pump kept running and the light didn't go off, the acc may be on it's last leg and a fresh one may be just the ticket. If it doesn't solve your problem, it is good to keep a spare.

The vaccum pump method is the best way to bleed at the wheels....especially with the P/M. I have one myself and will never pump bleed again.

Yes, check that line lock for proper functionality.
 
I'm still at it:eek: The new accumulator did not fix it and the pump continues to run. There is a new MC on there, so all that should be good. I took the line lock out of the loop and that did not fix it.

I am going to bleed the lines again, but normally the pump motor will stop and light goes out without a full brake bleed. The only thing left is the prop valve and rear brake cylinders. The rear brakes are what's locking up. I'm going to thrash on it some more to try to eliminate the other items, unless anyone has better ideas:cool:
 
Are you bleeding the wheels with the key on?
How long does the motor run and when are you letting it run?
 
Are you bleeding the wheels with the key on?
How long does the motor run and when are you letting it run?
I had done both since the motor runs all the time, never stops. I think one thing I will check is the rubber lines at the rear not releasing pressure. I was told they go bad from the inside. I can crack them at the fitting to relieve pressure and see if the rear wheels will turn then and if the pump stops running. Also I can crack lines at the prop valve to track down the problem also. The front brake lines are fairly new, so not a problem there. I had a vendor give me some good advice on this. I think it is either the back rubber lines or the prop valve.

When I have bled the brakes other times, I left the key on and it cycled the PM pump, then stopped. In this situation it never stops.
 
You rear lockup problem isn't causing your motor to run. They are two separate problems. If you break loose the bleeder valve and get no fluid out (no pressure relief), and the valve plunger is correctly positioned, then it could be mechanical - behind the drum or within the rear itself. Oh, you do have the correct valve...right? Not the old cast iron one, but the replacement brass?

If you have run your motor more than 20 seconds at any given time, you are killing your pump/motor slowly if it isn't already dead. If you are bleeding with the key on your are adding insult to injury. Vaccum bleed the wheels with the key off. Do you hear the pump load up when it starts to run or does the motor run the same speed all the time it runs?

Is the m/c a NEW or REBUILT unit from a reliable source (not used)?
 
You rear lockup problem isn't causing your motor to run. They are two separate problems. If you break loose the bleeder valve and get no fluid out (no pressure relief), and the valve plunger is correctly positioned, then it could be mechanical - behind the drum or within the rear itself. Oh, you do have the correct valve...right? Not the old cast iron one, but the replacement brass?

If you have run your motor more than 20 seconds at any given time, you are killing your pump/motor slowly if it isn't already dead. If you are bleeding with the key on your are adding insult to injury. Vaccum bleed the wheels with the key off. Do you hear the pump load up when it starts to run or does the motor run the same speed all the time it runs?

Is the m/c a NEW or REBUILT unit from a reliable source (not used)?
I get fluid out of the rear wheel cylinder bleeder valves and out of the front ones also. I will check the prop valve, but I would think it is original. Is that the one they had the service bulletin on?

I only let the pump run 20 or 30 seconds because I was aware of that could kill it. I bled without it on, then turned it on to see if it primed. The motor runs the same speed every time. The original MC pump loaded up, which I think it was leaking internally, running too often also. The MCs I used to replace were used, from a reputable GN owner who got out of the cars. One was low mileage, but I'm not sure which one is on there now, but I'm pretty sure that is not the problem. The first one I put on there had the brake pedal rod popped out of the MC, so it looked like it was not going to work, and I put the other one on.
 
I get fluid out of the rear wheel cylinder bleeder valves and out of the front ones also. I will check the prop valve, but I would think it is original. Is that the one they had the service bulletin on?
Yes.

I only let the pump run 20 or 30 seconds because I was aware of that could kill it. I bled without it on, then turned it on to see if it primed. The motor runs the same speed every time. The original MC pump loaded up, which I think it was leaking internally, running too often also. The MCs I used to replace were used, from a reputable GN owner who got out of the cars. One was low mileage, but I'm not sure which one is on there now, but I'm pretty sure that is not the problem. The first one I put on there had the brake pedal rod popped out of the MC, so it looked like it was not going to work, and I put the other one on.
20 seconds is the limit, but it sounds like that replacement pump/motor is gone. If you feel the m/c is good, you may could swap the pump/motors and see if it pumps up. If it was running too much, the leak was in the m/c and not the pump. You have changed that so you may be Ok with the original pump.
Myself, if I was to go through the trouble, it would be all new (or at least rebuilt) equipment. Brakes are no place for used components. There is no telling how much longer they will last. The P/M is a fabulous unit if properly cared for, but most don't know how to care for it and it has gotten a bad rep because of it.
 
I have the Kelsey-Haynes combo valve shown here:
http://www.gnttype.org/techarea/brakes/combo.JPG

It is rusted and therefore iron and original, so if I replace that I will the brass one listed here:
Brake Proportioning Valve Replacement

I see one rubber brake line before at the rear end of the car, before the lines split to each sides wheel cylinder. I can replace that if I determine it is a problem.

I just ordered a prop valve off gmpartsdirect, so I'll have the brass replacement. I going to do some more trouble shooting on the rear brakes maybe by cracking a line or bleeder valve. I just went out and bled the brakes, so I'll be ready to do some testing this weekend.
 
Hydroboost Vs Vacuum Vs Powermaster

Are You Still Having Problems? The Factories Have Not Used Check Valves In Their Masters Since 1972. If You Install The Booster/master On The Car, Leave The Outlet Lines To The Prop Valve 1 Turn Loose, The Master Will Gravity Bleed Itself. The Most Important Thing About Bleeding Brakes Is The Cap Must Be Loose. Not Off, But Unsnapped. Trying To Draw Down Fluid With The Cap Tight Will Create A Vacuum In The Reservoir, Not Letting The Fluid Go Down. Bench Bleeding Is A Nice Theory, But Without Check Valves, The Fluid Will Drain Out Of The Ports Before You Can Connect The Lines. If There Was A Bubble Of Air In The Lines At The Master, It Will Easily "bubble Up" Back Into The Reservoir. As Far As The Rear Brakes Locking, Do They Lock Up And Stay Locked, Or Do They Slide The Rear Tires When You Apply The Brake? Two Different Scenarios. The Powermaster Is Notorious For Wearing Out, Or Burning Up The 12v Pressure Pump. When The Vanes Wear Down, It Has A Tough Time Building Up The High Pressure Needed To Build Up The Acc. And Open The 12v Switch To Shut Off The Pump. Have You Considerd The Hydroboost? It Runs Off Of The Power Steering Pump, And Eliminates All Of Those Problems. It Uses A Conventional, Replaceable Master, And Delivers Superior Braking Power To The Car. It Actually Becomes Much More Fun To Drive With Braking Power You Can Depend On. Check Out "powerbrakesonline.com" For Some Photos Of The H/b.
 
Are You Still Having Problems? The Factories Have Not Used Check Valves In Their Masters Since 1972.
Wrong. The P/M has a check valve in it to hold the pressure inside the acc ball and keep if off the pump when it isn't running.

If You Install The Booster/master On The Car, Leave The Outlet Lines To The Prop Valve 1 Turn Loose, The Master Will Gravity Bleed Itself.
If you have really had luck with getting all the air out in this method, help yourself.
It has never worked for me.
All it has ever done is make a mess of dripping fluid and leave me with a m/c that needs to be properly bench bled.

Bench Bleeding Is A Nice Theory, But Without Check Valves, The Fluid Will Drain Out Of The Ports Before You Can Connect The Lines. If There Was A Bubble Of Air In The Lines At The Master, It Will Easily "bubble Up" Back Into The Reservoir.
Not quite. Bench bleeding has a purpose - to remove all the air. I have seen fluid leak out during bench bleeding, but as long as you don't leave the connectors out but for a minute, you won't loose but a few drops of fluid. Yes, you have to bleed the remainder of the system to finish removing the air from reconnecting the brakes lines. It's rare that air will bubble back into the bowl if bench bleeding is done correctly.

The Powermaster Is Notorious For Wearing Out, Or Burning Up The 12v Pressure Pump. When The Vanes Wear Down, It Has A Tough Time Building Up The High Pressure Needed To Build Up The Acc. And Open The 12v Switch To Shut Off The Pump.
You are unfortunately correct. The P/M had gotten a bad rep...primarily due to bad service or plain out neglect. It has to be well cared for to function long term. It's precision and works perfectly if properly maintained. Most figure it like a standard vaccum system - if it aint broke don't fix it. That's not the case for the P/M. It's high maintanence.

Have You Considerd The Hydroboost? It Runs Off Of The Power Steering Pump, And Eliminates All Of Those Problems. It Uses A Conventional, Replaceable Master, And Delivers Superior Braking Power To The Car. It Actually Becomes Much More Fun To Drive With Braking Power You Can Depend On. Check Out "powerbrakesonline.com" For Some Photos Of The H/b.
Bob,
I believe that your systems are excellent and reliable. If the time ever comes that I can't keep the P/M going, you will definetely hear from me. I'm glad that there is a good alternative to vaccum brakes on our cars. I personally don't care for the vaccum system on a car that doens't have constant vaccum. I like the theory behind the H/B and believe it to be reliable.

I am not a moderator - but frankly sir, you need to keep your sales pitches in the appropriate area of the board.

P.S. Turn off you caps lock.
 
I personally don't care for the vaccum system on a car that doens't have constant vaccum.


You do relize that a split second after the throttle blade closes you have vacuum. I never had a issue with not enough vacuum for the booster. And I've got at least 1000 miles worth of open track time on my GN to back it up. If you need vacuum back off the throttle if you have to. It does take a different technique compared to the HB or PM. Both in drag and road racing. I guess you could say that vacuum is stupid simple compared to everything else except for a pure maunal brake set up.


I agree on your other points too.
 
You do relize that a split second after the throttle blade closes you have vacuum.
Yes, I do. But it's that split second and the time that the vaccum builds (maybe another split second) that I don't rely on. With the P/M or H/B that worry is eliminated. Call me wierd if you like, but if I can eliminate any possible or potential problem - I will.


I agree on your other points too.
Thanks, appreciate that.
BTW, I need you to check on something for me.
I will send you a PM.
 
rear mechanical parts

The rear brake mechanicals parts have been replaced, they needed it anyway. I also replaced the rear rubber line prior to the hard lines on the axle. I still have a hard pedal and the PM motor constantly runs. But the rear brakes didn't seem to eventually lock up like before.

I am going to switch over to vacuum kit, which I already have. I do think the extra replacement used PM system I have is bad, because I have a new Kirban accumulator also. I ran through that gnttype flowchart, and I do believe it is the PM system. The only other things left are the prop valve and rear wheel cylinders. I've replaced the rear cylinders a couple years ago and I don't think the prop valve is a problem. I'll update when I get the vacuum on.
 
Hydroboost Vs Vacuum Vs Powermaster

I Was Refering To Residual Check Valves Used In The Outlet Ports Of The Master Cyl, Not The Check Valve Used To Hold Pressure In The Accumulator. Different Things. The Thing I Have Put On This Site Is About The Fact That Buick Never Used A Vacuum Booster On Their Turbocharged Cars. The 83-85's Came With A Hydroboost. No One Here On This Forum Has Ever Complained About The Performance Of Those Hydroboosts, Even Though They Are Close To 25 Years Old. They Still Work! Why Is It So Hard To Believe That They Would Not Work On Any Other Car Including The 86-87 G.n.'s? Vacuum Boosters Need Vacuum. They Need 20" Of Vacuum To Achieve Their Rated Output. The L88 Corvettes All Had Vacuum Power Brakes, Needed To Stop The Car At 160mph, But They Had To Downshift With A Closed Throttle To Get The Needed Vacuum. Chevrolet Discourged Street Drivers From Buying L88 Cars To Go To Work In, Because There Was Not Enough Vacuum At Idle Speeds To Push A 1.125" Master Used On Power Disc Brakes. Manual Masters, Putting Out About 600-800 Psi With Heavy Foot Pressure, Could Not Stop A 4 Disc Corvette At High Speed. They Put Boosters On Those L88's. Supercharging A Vacuum Booster Was Not A Good Idea, Then, Or Now. If You Clamp The Hose Down Tight Enough To Keep It From Blowing Off The Vac Check Valve, Then, If, The Rubber Valve Inside The Check Valve Was Pushed Into The Vac Booster, The Vac Chamber Of The Booster Would Be Subject To Manifold Pressure. The Surface Area, And The Cubic Inches Of Area Inside The Vacuum Booster, Even Under 20lbs. Of Boost, Would Be Enough To Blow It Apart, Causing Catastrophic Failure. It Would Be Like Sticking A Shop Blow Gun Inside A Vacuum Booster. It Would Blow It Apart. So, You Say, I Will Use An Electric Vacuum Pump. O.k. Look Inside The Suction Port. It Might Be About 1/8th To 3/16" In Diameter. Now, Look At The Volume Of Air Needed To Evacuate The Delco Booster, Every Time You Apply The Brake. Besides The Noise Of The Pump, The Elec Pump Cannot Pull The "volume" Of Air Out Of The Booster, To Meet Traffic Needs. It Takes A While For The Pump To Catch Up. Every Time You Apply A Vacuum Booster, You Let Air Into The Rear Of Both Diapragms. When You Let Up , That Air Has To Be Sucked Out By The Engine, Or The Pump, To Equalize The Vacuum On Both Sides Of The Dias., To Release The Brakes. That Air, Momentarily, Drops The Vacuum Inside The Booster To 5-9" Of Vacuum. If You Need To Reapply The Brakes, The Vacuum Has Not Recovered To Give You The Assist Needed. Then The Hard Pedal. As Far As The Powermaster, Those Electric Motors Have Always Been The Weak Link. They Are Pumping Brake Fluid Under High Pressure. Brake Fluid Has No Lubrication To It. The Vanes Wear Out, And The Seal Wears Out. If The Seal Leaks Brake Fluid Into The Motor, It Shorts It Out. If The Plastic Vanes Wear Out, The Pump Cannot Achieve The High Pressure Needed To Charge The Accumulator, Thus The Hard Pedal With The P/m
 
Replace the front rubber lines . I chased problems like you are and that is what is wound up being
 
So, You Say, I Will Use An Electric Vacuum Pump. O.k. Look Inside The Suction Port. It Might Be About 1/8th To 3/16" In Diameter. Now, Look At The Volume Of Air Needed To Evacuate The Delco Booster, Every Time You Apply The Brake. Besides The Noise Of The Pump, The Elec Pump Cannot Pull The "volume" Of Air Out Of The Booster, To Meet Traffic Needs. It Takes A While For The Pump To Catch Up. Every Time You Apply A Vacuum Booster, You Let Air Into The Rear Of Both Diapragms. When You Let Up , That Air Has To Be Sucked Out By The Engine, Or The Pump, To Equalize The Vacuum On Both Sides Of The Dias., To Release The Brakes. That Air, Momentarily, Drops The Vacuum Inside The Booster To 5-9" Of Vacuum. If You Need To Reapply The Brakes, The Vacuum Has Not Recovered To Give You The Assist Needed. Then The Hard Pedal.

Now this I agree with completely.
 
Replace the front rubber lines . I chased problems like you are and that is what is wound up being
All the front end parts are new about 3 years ago and 5000 miles, so they should be fine. I have a hard brake pedal now and the pump continues to run, so I'm going to swap to vacuum. Tim
 
Top