Performance mods - what order?

[williamsGN]

Maybe I should of worded it better, it will allow you to run higher boost without knock... knock causing you to blow HGs

BTW, running new springs on a car with your mileage, that you just want to do low 12s, will more likely wipe a lobe than 'help' you.

On that note, read up on and invest in ZDDPlus if your running a flat tappet (non roller) cam.

 

[forcefed3.8's]

It will need valve springs. The right valve springs will cause no problems.

 

[williamsGN]

You also state there are no gains on 3.5 mafs

http://www.turbobuick.com/forums/general-turbo-buick-tech/349212-would-i-benefit-much-ls1-maf.html


87-WE2 Under wide open you'll need a hood mount or in car FP gauge.

 

[forcefed3.8's]

At that level, no. It is track tested. The big gains in that thread are from other issues. My car went 125mph in the 1/4 with a 3" intake and 124.xx with a 4". NO GAIN!!!! As far as valve springs, my hot air 85 went 98mph with stockers. THE ONLY CHANGE was the springs, went 102 the next night. This isn;t even the 108+mph level he will need. What does your car run, and what changes have you made and documented a difference? I tried to get the most out of the stock set up, and spent every week at the track trying different set ups. The stock springs are barely enough when new.


Back to that thread, there were 3 other people saying no gains at the track at certain levels. You picked out the one that made BIG claims. Believe me, the LS1 sensor does flow more. I said the 3.5" plumbing is a waste. But the stock sensor will flow more than enough air for a low 12 sec car. In a low 12 sec car, there is no gain that I have tested by adding a larger MAS or pipe. I remember a test years ago where the 3" LT1 sensor flowed less than the stocker, but I guess it has been proven wrong.


And valve springs, Comp 979's with the cup. Have used them forever with no failures. Just ran two stock long block cars at Norwalk 2 weeks ago that have them. 11.36@118 and 11.35@116. Ran out of time, or the boost would have went passed 23psi.

 

[87-WE2]

don't get into a cyper spat over me, guys!

No offense, forcefed, but I think I'll hold off on the valve springs till I have trouble at high rpm. This thing scrams through the gears pretty easy. I don't know if it's the chip, but the boost gauge pegs at half-throttle. I may pull down the wastegate as a preventive measure.

I sure hat to stick a FPG on the hood. I may just buy one and check it a couple times to make sure the pump is keeping up. I gotta lot of stuff to buy & do first anyhow.

I appreciate you guys' help. I'll start slow with performance mods and get into Houston Buick Club to talk to those guys, too.

I've got to get 4 tires, a couple of those bad ass Budnik aluminum GN wheels and slicks to go on them first, then I'll get into the perf mods. Thanks for the input. At least I know I need to put the chip at the bottom of the list of things to do.

 

[williamsGN]

I picked one ??? I posted about the testing done by Richard Clark, you know, the guy who does testing to prove statements, as opposed to just throwing out how 3.5 don't help, or a 12 second car NEEDS valve springs to get there.

Again WE2, please spend some time and read up on the common wiped lobes on these cars, unless your springs are tired.. which they aren't at 61K.. funny how I might know that .... don't play with fire and think you'll go faster with springs, which you won't.

 

[Rich Gio]

I sure hat to stick a FPG on the hood. I may just buy one and check it a couple times to make sure the pump is keeping up. I gotta lot of stuff to buy & do first anyhow.

You really should have one, IMHO, that you can watch every time you "get on it". I have a fuel press and boost gage on the A piller so I can watch that fuel pressure rises with boost.

And I'd go in this order:

1) Scanmaster
2) Boost Gage
3) Fuel pump and hotwire
4) AFPR
5) TT Chip and Matched injectors (do at same time as AFPR reg since you'll have the fuel rail off anyways)
6) RJC Plate

Forget the 3" DP, get a nice free flowing exhaust like a Pypes w/ Race pro mufflers and maybe a ported stock turbo elbow.

 

[forcefed3.8's]

I picked one ??? I posted about the testing done by Richard Clark, you know, the guy who does testing to prove statements, as opposed to just throwing out how 3.5 don't help, or a 12 second car NEEDS valve springs to get there.

Again WE2, please spend some time and read up on the common wiped lobes on these cars, unless your springs are tired.. which they aren't at 67K.. funny how I might know that .... don't play with fire and think you'll go faster with springs, which you won't.

Just because it flows more doesn't mean it helps in a low 12 sec car. There are alot of cars on this board with the latest and greatest cool guy parts that don't do crap with their power level. I have track results what do you have? There are wiser places to spend the $, and not changing valve springs is a mistake.


So what does your car run??? How many cams have you wiped? With a seasoned cam, it is less of a problem.


Sorry OP, this turned into a internet Rambo fight.

 

[williamsGN]

Your backtracking.. you stated he would need springs to run 12s... you are wrong.

 

[forcefed3.8's]

WOW, get back in your box.


I have only been talking about going low 12's with stock stuff from the start. Is that a donkey in your avatar? Ohh wait it is a horse, my mistake.


BTW the car that went 11.36@118 I was talking about has a stock MAS and a TT chip. The other car has a LS1 sensor and 4" intake. Makes all of the difference, huh?

 

[87-WE2]

You really should have one, IMHO, that you can watch every time you "get on it". I have a fuel press and boost gage on the A piller so I can watch that fuel pressure rises with boost.

And I'd go in this order:

1) Scanmaster
2) Boost Gage
3) Fuel pump and hotwire
4) AFPR
5) TT Chip and Matched injectors (do at same time as AFPR reg since you'll have the fuel rail off anyways)
6) RJC Plate

Forget the 3" DP, get a nice free flowing exhaust like a Pypes w/ Race pro mufflers and maybe a ported stock turbo elbow.

What kind of FPG are you running in the A-pillar? Autometer? I've heard the electric ones aren't as reliable as mech, but they're getting better.

I didn't realize the rail had to come off to change the reg.

I've already got the hotwire kit. And I GUESS I'll do the pump & keep the one I have for a spare. It's going to kill me if I get in there to put in a Walbro 340& find out I already have a Walbro 340!!!

 

[Razor]

Throw in a little clarification.

To run higher boost you need to keep intake temps down and have higher octane fuel available to slow down the burn. The higher the boost.. the higher the octane requirement. Same with timing, leaner air fuel ratios, etc.

On pump gas your limited by octane. This will limit how much boost. Easy way to see limit is buy a scanmaster and watch the knock readout. Typically on a street chip.. 15-16 PSI is about it. If you run it richer, drop timing, get a bigger IC, etc.. you can get more boost.. but not a lot more. Some here can get 20 PSI on 93 octane by itself. But dont think they run high timing, lean afr's, etc that make power.

On a stock turbo GN your fighting heat from the turbo(small), heat from the IC(small), heat from the engine(doesnt breathe), etc.. This is why the alcohol stuff shines so well on stockers.

To run low 12's with a stock turbo you'll need a race chip(high timing/high fuel), race gas, set of slicks, and run boost way over 21 PSI. And have everything line up. The downside is before you leave track, you drain race gas(o2 sensor), swap chip, drop boost, and be back to a slow car.

Adding all the bolt ons you can wont let you go over that 15-16 PSI window of power.. as the octane is whats holding you back.

If you want power with a Buick... it needs octane. Whether through fuel or injection.. it is what it is. Each has a pro/con. The other way around it.. invest in better air flow management=heads and cam.. turbo/IC/DP.

Fastest stock turbo/stock longblock car ran 11.3 on 92 octane and alcohol injection. Not on C12/C16, etc.. 28 PSI boost 1st gear, 23 psi through the traps. 28 degree's timing. Dont try this tuneup on 93 by itself.

List

1) Scanmaster
2) Fuel pump + new hot wire kit and filter
3) chip to match fuel being used

From there the fun begins. Good luck.. tune for ZERO knock.. whatever that is.

 

[Rich Gio]

What kind of FPG are you running in the A-pillar? Autometer? I've heard the electric ones aren't as reliable as mech, but they're getting better.

I didn't realize the rail had to come off to change the reg.

I've already got the hotwire kit. And I GUESS I'll do the pump & keep the one I have for a spare. It's going to kill me if I get in there to put in a Walbro 340& find out I already have a Walbro 340!!!

I'm using the autometer...it is + or - 1 psi with a Mechanical Gage I have. The rail doesn't HAVE TO come off to do the Reg, it was just easier for me to bolt it to the rail when the rail was loose and just thread in the fuel line on the bottom.

 

[Rich Gio]

Adding all the bolt ons you can wont let you go over that 15-16 PSI window of power.. as the octane is whats holding you back.

If you want power with a Buick... it needs octane. Whether through fuel or injection.. it is what it is. Each has a pro/con. The other way around it.. invest in better air flow management=heads and cam.. turbo/IC/DP.

1) Scanmaster
2) Fuel pump + new hot wire kit and filter
3) chip to match fuel being used

From there the fun begins. Good luck.. tune for ZERO knock.. whatever that is.

Nail on the head Razor! :biggrin:

 

[forcefed3.8's]

Change the pump, it is cheap insurance. Don't be cheap, or the car will never be right, and you won't be happy, and you will be another one of the "These cars are a pain in the a$$" threads.

 

[Nick Micale]

.... I though as long as you keep enough fuel in the chamber to handle the amount of air you have going in, you shouldn't detonate??

I understand that the alky is used to "prevent" (probably not the right word) knock, but I thought that as long as you keep the octane and fuel level high enough to keep up with airflow, one should be good. ....

You are on the right track with your statement about "enough fuel in the chamber", but you also need to proper octane for a given boost or cylinder pressure.

Alky does NOT give you octane, but does cool the intake charge to allow more boost, BUT only up to a certain point without more mods?

Alky does NOT make more power, but allows additional boost which makes more power. Unless you have substantial experience in "tuning" with alky, or follow a known, proven formula, the results can be devastating. The term "tuning" here means also adding the necessary items for proper fuel delivery at the right time.

Remember, alky race cars require 3 times the volume compared to race gas for the same HP.

As Coach stated it is "easier" to get HP with race gas than alky, also it is MUCH safer to get track performance without issues or damage, and your use illustrates the point.

Pump gas almost every where is crap, here it is 15% alcohol to start, and it is doubtful it is what the octane rating as shown on the pump, especially premium gas which can be a month old sitting in the ground? The only people I know using premium pump gas is GN owners and a few modern performance cars, so with a 3 week shelf life, what is the octane when you put it in your car?

A local GN with a 11 sec. build went to the track this week for the test-n-tune and blew a head gasket at 1/2 track on the first, this was on pump gas.

 

[87-WE2]

OK - i think i got enough to chew on for now.
Scan, Pump + NEW Hotwire (wife will have trouble understanding why I need this when I already have it!!) + AFPR + the chip and injectors. If I end up with alky, I'll just have to get a new chip - good thing they're relatively cheap at $85!!

Thanks guys for all the input.

 

[87-WE2]

You are on the right track with your statement about "enough fuel in the chamber", but you also need to proper octane for a given boost or cylinder pressure.

Alky does NOT give you octane, but does cool the intake charge to allow more boost, BUT only up to a certain point without more mods?

Alky does NOT make more power, but allows additional boost which makes more power. Unless you have substantial experience in "tuning" with alky, or follow a known, proven formula, the results can be devastating. The term "tuning" here means also adding the necessary items for proper fuel delivery at the right time.

Remember, alky race cars require 3 times the volume compared to race gas for the same HP.

As Coach stated it is "easier" to get HP with race gas than alky, also it is MUCH safer to get track performance without issues or damage, and your use illustrates the point.

Pump gas almost every where is crap, here it is 15% alcohol to start, and it is doubtful it is what the octane rating as shown on the pump, especially premium gas which can be a month old sitting in the ground? The only people I know using premium pump gas is GN owners and a few modern performance cars, so with a 3 week shelf life, what is the octane when you put it in your car?

A local GN with a 11 sec. build went to the track this week for the test-n-tune and blew a head gasket at 1/2 track on the first, this was on pump gas.

I have no intentions of running pump gas at the track! I'm a noob, but not a dummy (I think):biggrin:

My plan is mostly pleasure driving around town with 93 (maybe throw a little 114 in with it or so). but come track time, 114 will go in the tank. Run up the boost a pound at a time & watch the kr on the scan. Is this not feasible. I'm a weekend warrior with this car, and I plan to spend many fun years tinkering with it. not doing all at once.

 

[DOUGGN]

I'm a new TB guy and am following this discussion with great interest. What is the hotwire kit and can someone recommend where to get the kit/fuel pump upgrade? Someone said it takes about an hour to do - what is involved? Sorry to cut in - but I'm new to the forum as well and this may not be proper procedure.

 

[87-WE2]

sweet - one i can answer!

I'm a new TB guy and am following this discussion with great interest. What is the hotwire kit and can someone recommend where to get the kit/fuel pump upgrade? Someone said it takes about an hour to do - what is involved? Sorry to cut in - but I'm new to the forum as well and this may not be proper procedure.

The hotwire kit is a wiring harness that includes a larger gauge wire that runs back to the fuel pump. The stock wiring harness has a cheesy speaker wire & there's significant voltage drop from the source all the way back to the pump.

The hotwire kit's larger wire suffers less voltage drop back to the pump, thereby carrying more voltage to it so it can run higher pressure.

It's not a pain in the butt to install. It's easy. I checked mine over to be sure it was installed correctly. Basically, you run from the alternator to a fuse that is installed under the hood. The harness follows the frame toward the back of the vehicle. Plug in to the harness for the fuel pump and you are good to go. Oh yeah, there's a ground strap included to run from the tank to ground, and a relay that will need to be installed at the back as well. Trust me, it works. My hotwire relay failed, so I used the factory wiring harness to make sure the pump wasn't burnt. The difference in the tone of the fuel pump at key-on was incredible.

You can get a hotwire at pretty much any of the vendors on here. Full Throttle, Kirban Performance, etc. It's well worth the $120 or so. While you're doing it - do the fuel pump too. You have to drop the tank to do it, but I've checked it out on the how to's and doesn't look that bad. Just do it when there's little fuel in the tank to make it lighter to handle.

Seniors please check my work, and Doug - remember I'm a noob!

Just search "hotwire install" on here & I'm sure you'll find detailed instructions (probably with pictures) on how to do it.