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plugging the servo bleed orifice

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INEEDAGN

Seen Your Member
Joined
Feb 28, 2003
Messages
4,785
I recently bought a 694 servo assembly to go in a stock CZ trans, and someone before me has plugged the bleed orifice in the piston. I have never heard of anyone doing this before and I was wondering if it is a really bad idea in a stock trans. I was informed of this before I bought it, and I can always redrill it if needed, though I would like to know what size is recommended.

Thoughts?
 
I'll assume the 694 is the stock inner and outer piston design. Never paid attention to the numbers. Plugging the outer piston orifice converts the 2 piston design to operate only on the one outer piston. This was done to increase band apply pressure when you are using worn pistons. The inner piston would wear out at the apply pin bore faster than the outer piston. The real and more effective answer is to replace both pistons if they have worn apply pin bores. Sorry. Don't have the hole size handy. Call me at work tomorrow if no one comes up with it.
 
?

If the inner piston (small metal one) fit the shaft good and has a good fitting sealing ring on it---- could you drill a couple holes (say 1/8 or larger) in the outer piston and greatly increase your apply area rather than plug the small hole which eliminates the use of the inner piston other than as a spacer.
 
If the inner piston (small metal one) fit the shaft good and has a good fitting sealing ring on it---- could you drill a couple holes (say 1/8 or larger) in the outer piston and greatly increase your apply area rather than plug the small hole which eliminates the use of the inner piston other than as a spacer.
The inner piston has nothing to do with increasing apply area. If you need an explanation, let me know. The 2 piston design is used to control band apply timing. Particularly during a forced 3-2 downshift. The inner and outer pistons must not wobble on the apply pin AT ALL! If they do, you will have a hydraulic cross leak. One of the common symptoms caused by this and in association with a few other cross leaks, especially right after a rebuild, is the dreaded 2-3 shift flare.

This is one of the wear areas that separates a good transmission rebuilder from a great one. Many builders ignore piston (servo, accumulator) pin bore wear. Do not tolerate any wear here.
 
Interesting. I went up to the parts shelf today and grabbed a few low performance servos and two or three pins and played with them all, and they all seem to have the same amount of wobble. None seem really loose but none seem really new and tight either. On a fresh stock trans should I redrill the hole? I can get the drill size from one of the low perf ones we have on the shelf.

Thanks for the help.

bob
 
That is why..

We put a seal in the bore on the pin to prvent leakage in case of wear. Works great too...
The Sonnax and Fairbanks servos have a tendency to wear more. Why? I have no clue unless it is the material they use. We use T6061 aluminum and install a seal between the 2nd and 3rd gear circuits.
Has worked very well over the last few years.
Here is a pic.
Product Information
Ck it out when you have a chance.

Bruce
WE4
Performance Transmission Services
 
general motors explanation for the 2 piston design is that the larger piston is slow to react to initial oil pressure so the inner piston gets the band apply to happen more quickly by sending oil in to the piston and applying force on the band.i personally dont see that this is a valid or logicall explanation.oil applied to the inner piston will also apply pressure in all directions including the 2nd piston causing a cancelling effect.it also robs oil being sent to the larger piston.studying other design of servos that apply a band in 2nd and act as a third accumulator in 3rd quickly point out that this is unnecessary.if you dont plug it i recommend that you also do not omit the outer seal ring on the inner piston.this would cause mixing off circuits to occur.it is a unique feature in the circuit and its purpose and real world function has yet to be understood by me ,however its omission has no ill effects.also using solid one piece governor shaft seal rings on the end of the piston (there are 2) you can eliminate third gear oil loss between the case bore and the servo pin.
 
Hey Chris. I believe the function of the 2 piston design comes into play on a 3-2 downshift. Picture in your head being in third gear. Oil pressure on both sides of the pistons in released position. A 3-2 is demanded. Oil pressure slowly drains from the release side. The small piston having the same area on both sides starts to move to apply the band because of the drop of release side pressure on that piston. The large piston has 2 different areas going on at this time. The apply side being smaller than the release side. The difference in areas on the large piston make it delay a bit as the pressure is dropping on the release side. When the pressure has dropped enough for the large piston to start moving to apply position, a space has opened up between the outer and inner piston. The band applies, the inner piston stops moving, and the orifice controls how quickly the outer piston catches up to the inner piston as the flow has now reversed going through the orifice. This gives a softer, longer apply of the band, giving the engine a chance to catch up to the gear ratio before the band takes a firm hold.

When you switch to a single piston design, you instantly notice how quickly the band takes hold on a forced 3-2 downshift. Many times the band takes hold too quickly, not giving the engine a chance to gain rpm to match the gear ratio and you get what feels like a quick engine braking sensation as the gear ratio is now pushing the engine until the engine can get up to speed. I know what you mean about understanding the function of the 2 piston design. It took me some deep thinking to figure it out. If you just slow everything down in your head, slowly releasing and monitoring pressures, you'll begin to see how it works. Pretty ingenious design really. They should keep that function incorporated in the super servos. I believe Sonnax gives you a choice of using the inner piston or not. I always use the inner, except in race only situations.
 
Interesting. I went up to the parts shelf today and grabbed a few low performance servos and two or three pins and played with them all, and they all seem to have the same amount of wobble. None seem really loose but none seem really new and tight either. On a fresh stock trans should I redrill the hole? I can get the drill size from one of the low perf ones we have on the shelf.

Thanks for the help.

bob

As I said before, do not tolerate any, ANY wobble.
 
Ok back for more discussion. I was reading through the transgo low performance "correction" kit instructions and I'm wondering how the hell they even get it to work. They leave the orificed cup plug in the outer piston and completely discard the inner sealing ring on the steel inner piston. Also it goes on to say that for firmer shifts you can order a 2nd piston and cover for a grand national but you do not need the bigger inner steel piston to go with it. They say it's ok to fit really loose. Now I don't want anybody to think that I am installing one of these kits, because i'm not, but how do they even make it work? They do say that if it has a drilled hole and not an orificed cup plug that you should install the plug, but they specifically mention that the plug still has an orifice in it. Thoughts?
 
Ok back for more discussion. I was reading through the transgo low performance "correction" kit instructions and I'm wondering how the hell they even get it to work. They leave the orificed cup plug in the outer piston and completely discard the inner sealing ring on the steel inner piston. Also it goes on to say that for firmer shifts you can order a 2nd piston and cover for a grand national but you do not need the bigger inner steel piston to go with it. They say it's ok to fit really loose. Now I don't want anybody to think that I am installing one of these kits, because i'm not, but how do they even make it work? They do say that if it has a drilled hole and not an orificed cup plug that you should install the plug, but they specifically mention that the plug still has an orifice in it. Thoughts?
A very good example of why I stopped using transgo kits many years ago.
 
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