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supsix

New Member
Joined
Dec 15, 2007
Messages
7
Hello everyone,
I'm knew to this site.I would like some guidance to fixing my powermaster.The brake light comes on and stays on.Brake pedal eventually gets hard to push.The 30 amp fuse blows regularly.I have to keep changing that out.Then,brakes work fine for about 20min.Then,same ole story.I purchased a new pressure switch but have not installed yet.Anybody ever change one and if so,is there any trick to it or do I unscrew it and replace it with no bleeding of the master cylinder.Just needing help.Any recommendations from the experienced out there?Thanks.
 
Hey

I wanna hear too...

I've got the same problems... I looking for a fix!!!

dave
 
Scrap it and go with vacuum coversion. The power master is to unpredictable. You will see there is a lot opinions that vary about power masters and hydraboost systems as with the vacuum systems.My car was wrecked because of failed p/m.Check pics of wrecked gnx a couple months back. 135 through the traps and a rock hard pedal. good luck with vacuum brake install:biggrin: . just kidding . good luck with whatever you do
 
Scrap it and go with vacuum coversion. The power master is to unpredictable. You will see there is a lot opinions that vary about power masters and hydraboost systems as with the vacuum systems.My car was wrecked because of failed p/m.Check pics of wrecked gnx a couple months back. 135 through the traps and a rock hard pedal. good luck with vacuum brake install:biggrin: . just kidding . good luck with whatever you do

Exactly, I have a newly remanufactured Vaccuum set up for sale. It was on my Limited for about 4 months, great shape, complete kit if anybody is interested. $150.
 
supsix, channer,

Before you go throwing parts at it, you should run some diagnostics:
Brake System

The most typical problem with the P/M is the accumulator ball. Especially if it has been neglected and the acc hasn't been cycled very often. Run the diagnostics with a good timepiece and post back up with the results. Pay attention to the acc test and the self cycle time. I will be glad to answer questions if you have them.

The switch and the acc can be replaced rather easily, but you have to pump the system down first. Don't use a set of pliers on the switch unless you have to and then be very careful. Then can be damaged if you're not careful. Neither has to be rediculously tight, they have an oring to seal. The threads can strip out if you tighten too much.

If it matters, vacuum conversions are the easy way out for those that don't understand the P/M.
 
If it matters, vacuum conversions are the easy way out for those that don't understand the P/M.

I dont think I would agree with you on this one. I prefer a fail safe brake system. Not one that has a good chance of going out on me. The PowerMaster system is not all that difficult to figure out. I suppose it's a matter of opinion but I would only use the PM if I wanted a completely stock set up for originallity purposes.
 
I dont think I would agree with you on this one. I prefer a fail safe brake system. Not one that has a good chance of going out on me. The PowerMaster system is not all that difficult to figure out. I suppose it's a matter of opinion but I would only use the PM if I wanted a completely stock set up for originallity purposes.

Yes, it is certainly a matter of opinion.
And is seems they fly around quite a bit! :biggrin:

Vacuum brakes aren't fail safe either. They can give out just as easy.
No brake system is purely failsafe. To me, it's maintanence and care that determines how well or long a brake system will last. Either one will have a diffucult pedal to push when the booster gives out, and either one will have the pedal go to the floor when the seals give out.

Ours (right now) is a daily driver. Failure free for almost 8yrs now.
I need to check my records and figure out the miles.
Call me wierd but I just like it.
Not only is it a conversation piece, but it works better than the brakes on my other (4) cars.
 
Yes, it is certainly a matter of opinion.
And is seems they fly around quite a bit! :biggrin:

Vacuum brakes aren't fail safe either. They can give out just as easy.
No brake system is purely failsafe. To me, it's maintanence and care that determines how well or long a brake system will last. Either one will have a diffucult pedal to push when the booster gives out, and either one will have the pedal go to the floor when the seals give out.

Ours (right now) is a daily driver. Failure free for almost 8yrs now.
I need to check my records and figure out the miles.
Call me wierd but I just like it.
Not only is it a conversation piece, but it works better than the brakes on my other (4) cars.

Yeah I really wish the PM would just be a perfect piece that we never had to worry about! I just got a PM in the mail that I bought today and it's pretty rusty. I'm going to take it apart and try to repaint all the black pieces and such. I emialed the guy I bought it from and told him it's pretty rusty from the brake fluid being on there. I told him if he cant cant be 100% sure that it will work, I'll send it back to him and not spend the time painting everything. Do you have any suggestions and how to get the rust off the motor case? Is it possible if it sat for a while to get fluid into the motor and damage anything? Thats really my biggest worry! It's not exactly easy to install a PM so I would be pretty pissed if it doesnt work! Are there any procedues I can take to check this before i install it? i bought it for my Limited that I want to be 100% stock and it will be a show car when it done. Should I try to paint the case of the motor?
 
just my opinion, i've been through the whole pm thing. i would never put a used system on a car......especially if obvious fluid leaks. bought a rebuilt from kirban a couple of months ago....seems to work fine, price was 415.00 then. i think there has been an increase in price though.
 
Yeah I really wish the PM would just be a perfect piece that we never had to worry about! I just got a PM in the mail that I bought today and it's pretty rusty. I'm going to take it apart and try to repaint all the black pieces and such. I emialed the guy I bought it from and told him it's pretty rusty from the brake fluid being on there. I told him if he cant cant be 100% sure that it will work, I'll send it back to him and not spend the time painting everything. Do you have any suggestions and how to get the rust off the motor case? Is it possible if it sat for a while to get fluid into the motor and damage anything? Thats really my biggest worry! It's not exactly easy to install a PM so I would be pretty pissed if it doesnt work! Are there any procedues I can take to check this before i install it? i bought it for my Limited that I want to be 100% stock and it will be a show car when it done. Should I try to paint the case of the motor?

Don't attempt to put used brake parts back into service.
You are asking for trouble.
You don't want to take a chance with a fresh show car that you spent so much time and effort on.
This is your pride and joy we are taking about.

The best suggestion I have on the motor is to replace it. Hank Terry sells brand new motors for under $200. I got one of his a few years back and it still looks pretty good. It can be painted whatever color you want. If you take that motor apart, it will never be right. You don't have the tooling to get it right.

If I may ask, do you not have a P/M on the car now?
Why did you by it used?
Why not get a fresh rebuild from Kirbans? They need cores.
If you plan on driving it, better to have good brakes that you KNOW are good.
 
Hydroboost Conversion

This Item Keeps Coming Back As The Number One Problem With The G.n.'s. Buick Never Installed A Vacuum Booster On Their Turbocharged Cars, Because Vacuum Boosters Need Vacuum To Work. 20" Of Vacuum Is What They Are Rated To Perform At. A 231 C.i. Engine, With Overdrive And F.i. Is Already Weak On Vacuum,(8-15") And Then, When It Is Turbocharged, There Is No Vacuum. The Only Time Some May Be Available Is At Higher Engine Speeds, With The Throttle Shut. Installing A Vacuum Booster From A Standard Regal Is Not What Buick Had In Mind. They Would Have Done It At The Factory, If It Would Work. It Does Not, Even Work, With A Noisy Vacuum Pump. Buick Actually Installed Hydroboosts On The 83-85 T Types. No One On This Forum Ever Complains About How They Work. They Still Work 20 Years Later. Hydroboosts Don't Care If There Is Any Vacuum, Because They Run Off Of Power Steering Pump Pressure. If The Engine Is Running, There Is Plenty Of Pump Pressure To The Brake Booster. If The Engine Is Off, The Accumulator Provides Pressure For 3 Stops With Boost, And After That, It Reverts To Manual Brakes. The P/m Electric Motor Has Phenolic Vanes, Because Brake Fluid Is Not A Lubricant. Steel Vanes Won't Last. When The Phenolic Vanes Wear Out, The Pump Can't Bring The Accumulator And Switch Pressure High Enough To Shut Off. Another Problem With The Electric Pump Is, The Seal Between The Pump And Windings Will Leak, Filling The Motor With Brake Fluid. This Is Why The Fuse Blows. In My Business, I Have Performed All Of The Conversions Tried Here. The People Were Never Happy When I Saw Them At Car Shows With The Vacuum Conversions. We Now Use All New Hydroboosts, And All Of Those Brake Problems Go Away. The Car Performs As Never Before. You Can Stand On The Throttle And Wind It Up, With No Fear Of Not Being Able To Stop. You Can Corner As Hard As The Tires Can Hold, Because You Know How The Car Will Decelerate. The Car Can Build Enough Turbo Boost At The Drags To Hold The Car Without Red Lighting. This Is Because As You Bring Up The Rpm's, The P/s Pump Speed Comes Up. It Just Holds The Car Harder. Then It Also Comes Down To The Safety Factor. Someone (and Others) On This Forum Wrecked His Car, Because The Powermaster Failed. High Turbo Boost Can Also Blow Apart The Vacuum Check Valve Or The Hose Off Of The Vacuum Booster. Not Good At High Speeds. Which Is The Safest? Buick Never Voted For The Vacuum Booster For Liability Reasons. The Hydroboost Can Deliver Up To 2000psi With A Great Pedal Feel.
 
Well thanks for all the info.I went ahead and replaced the pressure switch because when you pull off the connector,it had brake fluid on the pins.Anyways,it was worth the gamble because its working good right now.So far,2 days on the road with no problems.Just lucky I guess.It sounds like the hydroboost may be the way to go.I guess I'll wait till I start having another issue.Thanks for everyone's opinion/advice and hope all of you have a Merry Christmas.God Bless.
 
Well thanks for all the info.I went ahead and replaced the pressure switch because when you pull off the connector,it had brake fluid on the pins.Anyways,it was worth the gamble because its working good right now.So far,2 days on the road with no problems.Just lucky I guess.It sounds like the hydroboost may be the way to go.I guess I'll wait till I start having another issue.Thanks for everyone's opinion/advice and hope all of you have a Merry Christmas.God Bless.

lol....glad you got it fixed I had the same problem and fixed it with a new switch as well..........I think you got the pot stirred up for a second there..:rolleyes:
 
Powerbrakebob,

I agree with your post concerning "Buick never used vacuum brakes on a turbo car".

Pontiac did use vacuum brakes on a turbo car in 89 & in 81. I am curious as to the reasons Pontiac was able to use vacuum?
 
lol....glad you got it fixed I had the same problem and fixed it with a new switch as well..........I think you got the pot stirred up for a second there..:rolleyes:

That is one pot that is always getting stirred:biggrin:
 
Powerbrakebob,

I agree with your post concerning "Buick never used vacuum brakes on a turbo car".

Pontiac did use vacuum brakes on a turbo car in 89 & in 81. I am curious as to the reasons Pontiac was able to use vacuum?

Probably more cost effective. and maybe firewall conversion.
 
Hydroboost Conversion

Well, As They Say, Vacuum Boosters Need Vacuum To Work. They Are Rated To Operate At 20" Of Vacuum. Tough To Find On This Type Of Car. My Guess Is That Gm Did Not Want To Revisit The Powermaster Again, In 1989. I Think They Only Built 1500 Tta's. Gm (bendix) Never Got Around To Designing Hydroboost Brackets For The F Bodies. It Wasn't Cost Effective For Them To Do It. We Do, However, Make Them. Buick Did Install Bendix Hydroboosts On Their 83-85 T Types. No One Here Ever Complains About Those Hydroboosts, 20 Years Later. Since 1995, Bosch Resumed Production Of The Hydroboost. Also, In 1989, There Were No More G.n.'s, But Maybe Gm Had Some Turbo Motors Left Over, And Gave Them To Pontiac. Pontiac Also Used A Few Corvette Engines In The Formula Firebirds. But, To Make This Vacuum Booster Work, They Installed A One-way Check Valve Between The Manifold And The Vacuum Booster, To Prevent Boost Pressure From Exploding The Plastic Check Valve At The Booster. For The Last 45 Years, Camshafts Have Had To Be Ground Conservatively, Just To Create Vacuum For The Brakes. Ask The Racing Cam Manufacturers. Those Tta's Also Had Rear Discs, And A Different Prop Valve. There Is Someone Here On This Forum That Has A Tta, And He Says The Brakes Suck. The Standard F Bodies With 4 Disc Have A Spongy Pedal, And Few People Like It. The 80's El Dorados Had A Similiar Brake, But With An 11" Vac Booster. Those Cars Have All Been Scrapped Now, Mostly Because They Couldn't Fix The Brakes. We Devised A 10lb Check Valve In The 80's To Deal With The Low Pedal. It Worked, But We Couldn't Fix Them All. The Only Time Enough Vacuum Is Created To Work The Booster Is When The Throttle Slaps Shut. Watch The Boost Guage On The Dash. It's Easy To Get Vacuum With A Carburator, But With F.i., The Idle Air Motor Maintains A Fast Idle, Even With The Throttle Shut. In Overdrive, And On A Fast Idle, It's Hard To Slam On Brakes. It's Even Harder To Build Vacuum When Spooling Up A Turbo At The Drags. There Were Some Cadillacs, Citations, And Other Gm Cars That Came With An Electric Vacuum Pump, From The Factory. It Was Still A Half-assed Approach To Real High Performance Braking. We Retro Fitted Many Of Those Pumps In The 80's And 90's. It Was Always Marginal Improvements. The Hydroboosts Beat Any Other Combination.
 
ok............

I have rebuilt hydroboosts for 30+ yrs, so nothing is fool proof.
I have vacumn brakes on my buick trubo, WITH a big roller cam, and it stops very good at 130+mph, and repeated street driving too!.
I have 4 TR's, and 2 of them have problem with the power master, my point is.... stop knocking the vacumn set up, its as good as anything else available, (in my opinion) I agree you need vacumn to operate, but at idle you have sufficient vac to operate it! i don't have the correct numbers to say you need so much or it won;'t work, , but why does my car work fine at 12-13 in of vac?? and more when you left off the throttle??
let the owner of each car decide, I don't agree into scaring someone into buying something that isn't really needed.
I'll stick with my vacumn setup, I also have a vac setup WITH 4 wheel disc's on my 57 chevy and it stops perfect, (again with a very large lumpy cam) and no residual check valve, it sits for months with out use, and always has a very good pedal!!
I'm glad you can offer an alternative , but let the owner decide based on good info, not scare them into something.
 
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