Pushing the limit with AI

[KEVINS]

As some of you know I like pushing the limit of my combo and I am very HARDCORE about it. I have been researching AI all summer and I will probably get it when the funds are there but I am still "planning" what/how I will set it up.
It seems the limiting factor is still the octane from the fuel that is used, the O2's that are being read and intake temps.

Since meth is very stable from detonation my question is can the fueling be pulled out enough to run straight meth through the AI system or maybe 90% meth 10% fuel? What would the disadvantages be of doing this? I can see where there could be distribution issues that could cause problems but what else is there?

Since I am pushing the stock turbo beyond it's limits I will more than likely plan on VERY HIGH boost levels which creates a lot of hot air which NEEDS be be cooled. Can running straight meth possibly cool the charge enough to prevent KR? Maybe a dual system with one nozzle pre-intercooler or ??

Just thinking out of the box but I want to know if anything like this has been or can be done.

I curently use a ME 16 position chip.

TIA
KS

 

[QUIP'6']

probably could be done but you would need twice the amount of fuel if your are running 90% fuel and 10% alky then you would need 2 gallons for every gallon of alky

 

[KEVINS]

probably could be done but you would need twice the amount of fuel if your are running 90% fuel and 10% alky then you would need 2 gallons for every gallon of alky

I think you have it backwards, I'd be looking to run 90% alchy and 10% fuel or 100% alchy.

ks

 

[pacecarta]

on stock turbo duttneck IC i could easily run 27-28psi with straight meth and high timing (27/23) using razors kit, single nozzle , and a TT chip and 93 octane

why you feel you need to deviate from that i dont know

 

[RICHIE HIGH PSI]

on stock turbo duttneck IC i could easily run 27-28psi with straight meth and high timing (27/23) using razors kit, single nozzle , and a TT chip and 93 octane

why you feel you need to deviate from that i dont know

Ditto!

 

[Blazer406]

IMHO.... spraying 90% methanol out of squirters before the throttle body is a bad idea..... those fuel injectors are placed in your intake strategically to be near the intake valve... so when they spray.... the fuel gets sucked in immediately. Spraying a small amount of Methanol out the spray jet is ok because it hits the hot compressed high velocity air... and almost instantly changes from a liquid to a gas....therefore removing a massive amount of heat..... the gas has no problem going where it needs to.....

Now if you try and spray a massive amount.... it will not all be converted to a gas.... this liquid will be traveling inside the intake... that was never intended for "wet flow"....I would lay odds that this would have alot of fuel distribution issues.... one cylinder being leaner than another.....another issue is that it would take bigger alky pumps and probably 6 nozzles in the up-pipe to be able to flow enough alky....roughly... if your engine is making say... 500 RWHP... and it pretty much maxes out 50# fuel injectors.... it would take nearly 100# fuel injectors to make the same HP if you were on Methanol..... x 6 injectors.... now plumb that in the up pipe.....when you are spraying all that alky in the up pipe... and close the throttle blade.... where is it going to go..... likely it is going to fill up the intercooler.....no good.

Now for the point of why bother....How fast are you looking to go? Grumpy's daughter has a daily driver GN that has gone like 10.10.... on pump gas and alky..... I would bet by Bowling Green.... if not before.... someone will go 9's on a daily driver capable turbo buick... with pump gas and alky.... and they won't be spraying but with 2 nozzles likely...

Just my opinion....

HTH

 

[Quick6'n'-K.C.]

I think the transition from going to gasoline to methanol is going to be the biggest leap in that setup.
Why not just run the car on 100% methanol thru some bigger injectors instead of trying to tune it on gas going on meth with boost?

No need for High Boost on the stock turbo, just turn the timing up quite abit and get it leaned out. Cut some weight and then its gonna be quick:biggrin:

BW

 

[QUIP'6']

I think you have it backwards, I'd be looking to run 90% alchy and 10% fuel or 100% alchy.

ks

i know what you meant i had it right i was saying to run it the way you want it will take twice the amount of alky to run

 

[KEVINS]

on stock turbo duttneck IC i could easily run 27-28psi with straight meth and high timing (27/23) using razors kit, single nozzle, and a TT chip and 93 octane

why you feel you need to deviate from that i dont know

The reason is to push the limits of the stock turbo. Break new ground with what can be done. Why stop at 27/28psi? Why not 30-35-40psi? Maybe that's not fast enough on a stock turbo and there is more to be had.

Like I stated above I am VERY HARDCORE (always have been) and I have no problems going where people would never think about going but I always research it first b4 jumping in which is where all your expertise/experience comes in.

ks

 

[Alky V6]

Blazer406 is right about the distribution problem. If you pursue the high percentage of alcohol, you will need to inject it through multiple nozzles and they should be port mounted. If the alcohol is not atomized well, you will get missing. That is why mechanical alcohol injection systems run at 100 psi. The injection nozzles that are used on those systems optionally have an aeration orifice (non-boosted applications) that helps to aerate or mix air with the fuel before it leaves the end of the nozzle. Less fuel fall out results.

Questions are an important start to reaching your goals. I'd say you're off to a good start. Just keep asking away and learn as much as you can about burning alcohol before you lay out any money. As some have suggested, it would be easier to just use Razor's kit.

 

[KEVINS]

IMHO.... spraying 90% methanol out of squirters before the throttle body is a bad idea..... those fuel injectors are placed in your intake strategically to be near the intake valve... so when they spray.... the fuel gets sucked in immediately. Spraying a small amount of Methanol out the spray jet is ok because it hits the hot compressed high velocity air... and almost instantly changes from a liquid to a gas....therefore removing a massive amount of heat..... the gas has no problem going where it needs to.....
Now if you try and spray a massive amount.... it will not all be converted to a gas.... this liquid will be traveling inside the intake... that was never intended for "wet flow"....I would lay odds that this would have alot of fuel distribution issues.... one cylinder being leaner than another.....another issue is that it would take bigger alky pumps and probably 6 nozzles in the up-pipe to be able to flow enough alky....roughly... if your engine is making say... 500 RWHP... and it pretty much maxes out 50# fuel injectors.... it would take nearly 100# fuel injectors to make the same HP if you were on Methanol..... x 6 injectors.... now plumb that in the up pipe.....when you are spraying all that alky in the up pipe... and close the throttle blade.... where is it going to go..... likely it is going to fill up the intercooler.....no good.

That's exactly where I thought my problem would be also... Which started me towards nozzles in the runners for the meth which grew into a large spiders nest of concerns..

I think the transition from going to gasoline to methanol is going to be the biggest leap in that setup.
Why not just run the car on 100% methanol thru some bigger injectors instead of trying to tune it on gas going on meth with boost?

No need for High Boost on the stock turbo, just turn the timing up quite abit and get it leaned out. Cut some weight and then its gonna be quick:biggrin:

BW

I was concerned with the transition also. More than likely I would start with race fuel and alchy then turn boost up slowly and decrease fueling/increase alchy and monitor KR closely. I'm not sure if this would be the way to go so I plan on reading more archives and asking more questions and do a lot more research b4 anything is done but I would like a plan before I decide anything. I have been reading a ton of posts all summer but the one thing that has been lacking is people actually pushing the envelope. YES, cars are extrememly fast with AI but only to the point of matching or barely exceeding race fuel.. How about a mid 10 sec stock turbo car? Probably BS now but in 5-10 years it could happen if someone pushes the envelope. Ed's gone 11.3's and this was totally against what people would have thought just a few years ago but the time is here and it's been done.
Great Info!

Thanks guys!
ks

 

[Razor]

The reason is to push the limits of the stock turbo. Break new ground with what can be done. Why stop at 27/28psi? Why not 30-35-40psi? Maybe that's not fast enough on a stock turbo and there is more to be had.

Like I stated above I am VERY HARDCORE (always have been) and I have no problems going where people would never think about going but I always research it first b4 jumping in which is where all your expertise/experience comes in.

ks

Cuase you run out of air. Put a 101MM turbo then you'll have plenty of air.

 

[KEVINS]

Cuase you run out of air.

I agree but at what point? I'm not talking the efficiency point we all know that the stock turbo starts pushing hot air around 22-23 and this is the considered limit on race fuel. But at what point does the turbo become the actual bottle neck even if the air can be cooled to ambient or below ambient temps?
Pacecarta has already stated he's run 27/28psi although the altitude and MPH is still needed to decide how efficient this was for him. Ed B has run 11.3's @ mph ?? at 26psi (I think), Bryan (Quick6'n'-K.C.) has run stellar 11.7s @114 at a "conservative" amount of boost @ 22-23psi http://www.turbobuick.com/forums/showthread.php?t=201169&referrerid=285.

I believe the MPH will be the indicator when the stock turbo starts to become the actual bottle neck and with Razors alchy hitting new ground I think the MPH will go up on these gents cars.

IMO the stock turbo is limited to around 115/116mph on straight Race Fuel, 3400lbs, etc but on alchy the MPH could be 118+ (maybe Ed's already hit 118 I couldn't find the thread).
It also may take high boost launches (30psi?) to get great 60's in the 1.4's and 330 times but dialing the boost back in high gear so teh turbo doesn't become teh bottle neck..I dunno.. A buddy of mine has gone as fast as 1.53 in the 60' on 20 psi foot brake launches (stock turbo, IC, Inj's, race fuel) while running 23psi down the track so 1.4's are in the ball park with more boost.
Again just thinking out of the box but someone will be damn close to the 10's over time....

Thanks for keeping this thread tame..
ks

 

[pacecarta]

i actually found running high boost at start then scaling back to 22-23 really picked up the mph .,i wasnt pre spooling much at line only going to 2800 before tree started then building quickly on foot brake and leaving at around 3800-4000 , 1.5 highs were easy
on the last passes i was just running on street tires and concentrating on MPH and once I was once getting the mph gains needed for 11s the stock turbo began to fall apart took a dump on the long ride home from cecil (oil out exhaust)
and then the cam decided to go so ill have to wait till spring to go at it again on yet another stock turbo, fresh tires and a freshened stock motor if i can resist messing with the heads .

 

[KEVINS]

i actually found running high boost at start then scaling back to 22-23 really picked up the mph .,i wasnt pre spooling much at line only going to 2800 before tree started then building quickly on foot brake and leaving at around 3800-4000 , 1.5 highs were easy on the last passes i was just running on street tires and concentrating on MPH and once I was once getting the mph gains needed for 11s the stock turbo began to fall apart took a dump on the long ride home from cecil (oil out exhaust) and then the cam decided to go so ill have to wait till spring to go at it again on yet another stock turbo, fresh tires and a freshened stock motor if i can resist messing with the heads .

Kewl that you are planning to stay with the stock turbo! Hopefully the bug won't bite to step it up..LOL
What boost controller are you using to start with high boost then able to scale it back? I have only started to research controllers so I don't know which one can do this.

ks

 

[Alky V6]

i actually found running high boost at start then scaling back to 22-23 really picked up the mph .,i wasnt pre spooling much at line only going to 2800 before tree started then building quickly on foot brake and leaving at around 3800-4000 , 1.5 highs were easy
on the last passes i was just running on street tires and concentrating on MPH and once I was once getting the mph gains needed for 11s the stock turbo began to fall apart took a dump on the long ride home from cecil (oil out exhaust)
and then the cam decided to go so ill have to wait till spring to go at it again on yet another stock turbo, fresh tires and a freshened stock motor if i can resist messing with the heads .

Very impressive. I was figuring that you might have to over-speed the turbo to get the airflow you're needing. You seem to have confirmed that.

 

[turbobuick]

You are leaving out a key element of exhaust back pressure which'll have ALOT more to do with detonation than the heat of the intake charge.

 

[pacecarta]

i had run the bstc which uses the 3rd gear signal from trans (tap it at the ecm) to trigger a seperate (lower) boost

 

[Razor]

Once you get into high gear the needle starts dropping off.. meaning the turbo cannot keep up with the engines demands...

See you pull the hose of the wastegate in first gear that little turbo will hit 30+ PSI.. get the engine breathing in high gear.. yank the hose off.. its got no where to go.

Ed's car ran 28 PSI 1st and 2nd then came down to 23-24 PSI in high gear. Not becuase he wanted to.. but becuase he couldnt get any more air out of that little sucker.

Dont pull the hose of a 101mm turbo in high gear

 

[KEVINS]

Ed's car ran 28 PSI 1st and 2nd then came down to 23-24 PSI in high gear. Not becuase he wanted to.. but becuase he couldnt get any more air out of that little sucker.

Great info! That's exactly what I would expect from a turbo that was too small and it also notes that someone has already done what I was thinking about doing The part that I am still concerend with is controlling the fueling as the boost goes from high boost to low boost. Will the MAP sensor and progessive controller handle this? I would think it should..

Also, what about chip timing? What type of timing would you guys feel is needed for high boost in 1st/2nd (say 30psi, race fuel and AI) and high gear 25-26psi or would there be any difference?

Getting back to the straight meth question: the thing that I didn't know is whether running mostly alchy would still make more HP to get the MPH since a car on straight meth makes more HP than race fuel. It doesn't appear at this time that the AI could supply enough meth "safetly" to take over the fueling duties and a designated meth system would be needed. I don't think I want this...at this time..

Dont pull the hose of a 101mm turbo in high gear

LOL.. I wish I had the motor that NEEDED a 101!!

It's time to start looking at boost controllers..

KS