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Re-torque on 9441s and Studs?

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Daniel Jost

Squirtin six
Joined
Oct 11, 2003
Messages
1,288
I have a couple questions regarding the torque and re-torque process on 9441's and engine oil. The last 2 times I have had the heads of of my car I had ARP lube and did the proper re-torque process.

My first question is, what torque to use with 30 weight oil?

Second question, is there any way to install these gaskets with studs and not have to re-torque the heads? It is over 100* here and pulling the engine back apart to torque the heads does not sound like fun... I have heard of guys over torquing the heads to compensate for "Squish" with good results. It this just a really S$%# idea?

,Dan
 
The factory used the same gasket. Did they re-torque? Neither do I.
 
Well they did use TTY bolts though. What do you use for nut TQ and what lube?

Thanks, Dan
 
Well they did use TTY bolts though. What do you use for nut TQ and what lube?

Thanks, Dan

I use ARP lube and torque my ARP studs or re-used stock bolts to 85 ft/lbs. Torque to yield is just one way of getting to a certain amount of clamping force. What ever amount of force that might be,they don't re-torque and neither do I with that type of gasket and that is the same gasket that I've been using. It will only hold back so much pressure before it leaks,but it's generally reliable to 22 lbs of boost.
 
I consistently run around 26-27 pounds of boost on E85 for quite a while with no issues, I was running right around 28-29# when I starved the twin pumps of fuel... Dumb mistake ran it low on fuel, it detonated a bit and knocked out the #5 Cylinder... Is your estimate of 22# being very conservative? It sounds like I'll go to the local race shop and pick up some ARP lube and do what you said.

,Dan
 
I switched over to ARP bolts when the heads were off, we torqued to 85 ft/lb and let sit overnight with arp lube. We retorqued in the morning, but there was little movement, and then back in the car it went. I've never checked them since; 15k miles and 50 passes now and still holding boost and coolant where they belong.
 
Thanks for your input guys, I am usually methodical about the way I assemble engines as, I used to do research engine builds for a large equipment manufacturer before I got into the design side. But I think everyone can agree when it gets blistering hot out working on a doing something that may not really need to be done is just a cause for throwing tools! Lol

,Dan
 
Regarding using 30 weight oil - my advice would be to torque them to the same final number (80 ft-lbs, if my memory is correct). However, I would torque cycle each nut at least five times to condition the threads. The big advantage of the ARP lube (if you believe their test results) is that you consistently hit the same preload for the same torque without needing to torque cycle several times. With oil, you need torque cycle many times to get a consistent preload at a given torque.

Check out this page, and click on page "4". http://arp-bolts.com/pages/arpultratorque.shtml Notice that the ARP lube and oil give the same results, but only after the oiled fasteners are torque cycled over five times.

Regarding re-torquing - this topic has been beaten to death on this board. Some knowledgable people say to re-torque (often with different procedures), and other knowledgable people say it's not necessary.

When I did mine (ARP studs, ARP lube, 9441 gaskets), I re-torqued after running the engine a couple of times. All I did was put a wrench on the nuts and turn them in the clockwise direction - I did not loosen and then re-tighten them. So, maybe this was more of "checking torque" than "re-torquing". Even just doing this, some of the nuts turned a little before reaching 80 ft-lbs. This makes me think that some things "settled" after I ran the engine a few times.

BTW, of course the factory didn't re-torque. It would take too much time and cost too much money to re-torque every engine's head bolts after heating-up the engine. What the factory probably did do was use a "multiple" to torque all of the head bolts simultaneously rather than one-at-a-time like we do. This usually gives a pretty good result - at least it did when we developed head bolt torquing procedures on a new engine I worked on at another OEM. When we developed the torquing procedure for the service manual, which of course torques the bolts one-at-a-time, we could never quite get the preload on all of the bolts as consistent as the factory "multiple" could achieve. But, it was "good enough" for a normal engine under normal usage.

Here's some links - after you read them, decide for yourself what is best for you! A search with terms "retorque ARP studs" will turn up a lot of results.

http://turbobuick.com/forums/threads/retorquing-heads-when.53461/

http://turbobuick.com/forums/threads/headgasket-installation-with-studs.309697/ (this one is a sticky)

I'm sure there are others...

Good luck,
 
Thanks mgmshar, I think because of the settling is why they are "Over Torquing" to 85#. I think What I will do is just a single torque and run it for a while and when it starts to cool down I may just go through and put a wrench on them to check. I know the last set I did did not move at all when I checked them at 80#, though according to my Digital Snap on wrench I was around the 85# area in all actuality on the initial TQ... This IMO helps to validate the 85# set it and forget it method, and is why I wanted to get opinions from others who have/have not re-torqued.

,Dan
 
Does anyone put anything on their head gaskets? I have always used copper spray but after some searching I find that the 9441's are best dry? I guess I have been doing it wrong for all these years...

,Dan
 
They are tacky out of the package for a reason. Try not to touch them in critical areas ..hold on outside edge
 
Daniel Jost said:
Does anyone put anything on their head gaskets? I have always used copper spray but after some searching I find that the 9441's are best dry? I guess I have been doing it wrong for all these years...

,Dan

I put mine on dry. From what I have read, no sealant is required.

Mike
Sent from my HTC Droid Incredible using Turbo Buick
 
ARP has a newer formula of lube. They claim it reduces torque "scatter"...Another name for variations in load.
 
I've had good results just retorqueing on the engine stand. Assemble and torque, wait a while, and retorque.

I would not over-torque.
 
anyone ever had a 9441pt leak oil from the top corners where the oil drains back to the valley??
I pulled the head(I didnt check the torque but they sure felt damn tight) and the gasket is coated in engine oil but no signs of compression or coolant leaks??

I figured I had different head gaskets and not 9441PT's
 
I've never seen those leak. I'd look elsewhere
 
already did....engine oil dye confirmed before I pulled it down.
It was seeping right through the gasket on the left head rear top corner...I thought it was the intake.
Like I said when I pulled the head off the gasket was coated in engine oil and did not seperate.95% of the graphite stayed on the gasket which I thought was weird.
 
Then the the gasket is damaged or isn't clamped down properly in that area
 
I used the cheap 8723 gasket that came in my kit. tq'd to 85ftlbs with arp bolts. Never retorqued, been running 24lbs for a while now and no problems
 
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