Real opinions on alcohol injection

[sixgun86gn]

Originally posted by JDSfastGN
I understand he has a lot more done to it, but hes doing it on 93 and alky and not race gas thats my point, its not adding anything over race gas performance wise other than the convenience of running it all the time and for a lot cheaper in the long run. I could have gone quicker on a better 60 as it was only a 1.80, i should have said i did that in street trim, up at noble this year my first run was on 93, 17 psi and my slicks and it ran an 11.68 at 113 on a 1.58 60 so yes it can go quicker but with out a bigger turbo its really not gonna mph very much higher

I do it on JUST 93.Thats the point.11.20 @123 93 pump and 16#.Tried 25# and 114 at noble and the trans crapped out.

 

[JDSfastGN]

Originally posted by sixgun86gn
I do it on JUST 93.Thats the point.11.20 @123 93 pump and 16#.Tried 25# and 114 at noble and the trans crapped out.

But it would go faster on alky thats my point, i agree that if we all had the money then we would just build these motors into 10 sec screamers and run them in the 11s all the time, but when a car setup like mine or having a bone stock motor with huge turbo/stall/injectors is at your door or pulling away while your on 93 there are no excuses

 

[JDSfastGN]

Originally posted by sixgun86gn
JD,ever heard of Bill Duke?

If you have you should ask him how many motors he has seen destroyed by people trying to use alcohol.

and ive seen hundreds of motors destroyed while pushing the limits on race gas, whats the point, i don't know him but im assuming he is anti-alky from what he has seen, but im pro-alky with what ive seen, i look in the alky tech section and rarely do i see people blowing headgaskets in there. Bottom line is in the right hands if the owner is willing to learn to tune and not just slap it on and think hes a 25 psi monster right away alky is an awesome mod and can come very close if not surpass what you can run on race gas. There are a lot of anti alky people like yourself but your reasons for not having have nothing to do with everybody else, its not a logical idea for 90% of the people to build a 4.1 thats capable of 10s as its a lot of money as most can't or don't have the time to put it together themselves.

 

[sixgun86gn]

You couldnt pull me on just 93 with a stock motor with turbo and injectors on alky.Won't happen.Most of you are lucky to run in the high 11s and very few get lower than that without much more motor.

 

[JDSfastGN]

Originally posted by sixgun86gn
You couldnt pull me on just 93 with a stock motor with turbo and injectors on alky.Won't happen.Most of you are lucky to run in the high 11s and very few get lower than that without much more motor.

dunno about that, a car with a 63, good 3600 stall, proper injectors and such on 24 psi would be a good run, low 11s isn't untouchable on alky or even close to it, i trapped 96 mph in the 1/8 with a little 44 ? i would lose to u in street trim but there are quite a few cars running around with similar setups to me with a bigger turbo that would run very close to your times. Whether the stock motors will last at that kinda power level is iffy but so is probably not more so than your 4.1 (no offense as i think 4.1s are awesome setups)

 

[sixgun86gn]

This is getting old.There are 2 ways to go faster alky and stock/modded(quick),or built to the hilt(fast).

 

[bruce]

There is so much bad information out there, being repeated by people that haven't used it, that it amazes me.

First off, alky injection isn't to be confused with running straight alky.

Second, alot of US WWII fighters ran it. Just off hand, I can't think of an application that requires more reliability then a Fighter Aircraft.

Third, there's lots of good information on the net, based on the original research, googling for NACA will lead you there. The original research is non-biased, and completely factual. None of the *I heard this*, or opinion based, hearsay.

Fourth, Alky is an effective *charge cooler*, or anti-detonation agent. If in doubt, read the original research.

Fifth, it works, I've posted data logs done back to back with and without it showing the difference in plenum temps..

Sixth, If in doubt read the original research.

Seventh, tuning is tuning. Start with a modest amount of timing, and boost, and work up from there. Develope the habit of saying well documented data logs, and/ or notes. They are invaluable to show you what the trends are, and what YOUR engine likes.

Eight, Ignorance will kill any engine.

I ran right at 28 PSI without, alky, and on 91, for a year, before finally blowing a Headgasket. At 22-24 PSI, now for over 2 years with no headgasket failures, and still just with 91 pump gas. Hard to believe?, maybe, but I put alot of time into tuning the car.

Reading plugs, while almost a lost art nowadays, is key to any high performance tuning. If you can't read plugs, don't be surprised when you lose a set of headgaskets.

Look up the thread I started about abmornal combustion. In it you'll find out why relying just on the K/S is playing with fire. The acoustic signature between pre-igntion, and detonation is different. You can lose an engine, or headgaskets to pre-ignition and never see a Knock count. An engine can transistion from pre-ignition to detonation incredibly fast, and you can lose an engine with out knowing what even happened.. Again, find the link and read it.

Pin point tuning, ie getting lost on the details of one item is also a way to generate 300#'s of scrap iron. You have to look at the full and complete picture.

Now for some of my opinion, I've looked around, and tried pasting together some stuff to gather some data to investigate if I want to play with alky on my car. After doing alot of looking around, and seeing who's been doing what. I bought one of Razor's Alky kits. It's been too cold to install it so far, but afterseeing his and others results, talking to him on the phone (and emails), after looking at the kit, I'm happy.

 

[sixgun86gn]

Originally posted by JDSfastGN
dunno about that, a car with a 63, good 3600 stall, proper injectors and such on 24 psi would be a good run, low 11s isn't untouchable on alky or even close to it, i trapped 96 mph in the 1/8 with a little 44 ? i would lose to u in street trim but there are quite a few cars running around with similar setups to me with a bigger turbo that would run very close to your times. Whether the stock motors will last at that kinda power level is iffy but so is probably not more so than your 4.1 (no offense as i think 4.1s are awesome setups)

Now you are talking about a 4.1 with a 63,83#injectors,3200 stall,3" exhaust,headers,FMIC,etc.Went as fast as my 3.8 with the same combo on 25# and race gas,just on 93.You would have to try awful hard.

 

[sixgun86gn]

Bruce,once again I HAVE used it.

I am done arguing.This guy asked for opinions...I gave mine.Nuff said.

 

[JDSfastGN]

Originally posted by sixgun86gn
Now you are talking about a 4.1 with a 63,83#injectors,3200 stall,3" exhaust,headers,FMIC,etc.Went as fast as my 3.8 with the same combo on 25# and race gas,just on 93.You would have to try awful hard.

sorry man i really don't follow this post, if your saying all that small amount of displacement difference can't be made up with an extra 9 pounds of boost your kidding yourself. The car of the first poster "Not Avg 6" on alky and tuned properly should be capable of blowing your doors off if hes on alky and your on 93 alone. You're really ignoring all my points, they asked about the pros and cons of alky, and you are stating that building a 2500 $ motor at the cheapest is the better idea than adding a 500$ alky kit and that is just not simply the case. I have no doubt that a 4.1 or even a 3.8 built to the hilt is the better way to make huge power but the people running alky or wanting to are looking to get into the 11s or maybe high 10s on alky but want the power there all the time and alky is the best solution to this without a doubt in my mind when it comes to bang for the buck. Alky will not destroy a properly tuned motor and can put down huge numbers on the street or the track. i'm not gonna convince you of anything, and your not gonna convince people to throw away their alky and build a 4.1 or stage motor

 

[gn85]

I'm surprised Red Regal T hasn't jumped in on this thread yet.

 

[Not Avg 6]

Originally posted by Renthorin
Sixgun, I completely agree that race gas is better protection as you have far less chance of running the gas tank dry on a pass than running the alky tank dry.

I just don't think comments like "Yep,don't buy race gas.........buy headgaskets." need to be made as they do not depict the alky scene honestly and fairly.

In my case, I don't go to the track so alky was a cheap bolt on that gave me excellent results. It seems like Not Avg 6 is more of a street cruiser than a racer like me so a seriously built motor is probably not in his future.

Sixgun,
I do have a pretty well built motor by Aggressive Performance ( 11.50 's at 119 on 93) and I know a little something about tuning. I'm just looking for opinions on this alky decision. But, like Renthorin said, I'm more of a street cruiser at the same time trying to keep my buddy"s seriously modded '04 Cobra in check.

 

[VernLee]

Go with the alky, you won't regret it, takes a lot of worry out of the mix, As far as I'm concerned , it should be the first mod, it's like anything else, if you have a tired motor to start with, and boost it to 20 + it's just a matter of time,

 

[sixgun86gn]

Your motor is capable of more on 93 alone.Depending on elevation and such.I have gone 11.20s for a good while on an iron headed 4.1 on straight 93 with a flat tappet cam.The short block was built for $800.

My opinion is that you have enough motor to decimate most anything on the street.Why further complicate things with alky?

That seriously modded 04 cobra could be enough that alky won't help.I have a friend down here with a motor built like yours and he runs high 10s on pump gas alone.

 

[JDSfastGN]

Originally posted by Not Avg 6
Sixgun,
I do have a pretty well built motor by Aggressive Performance ( 11.50 's at 119 on 93) and I know a little something about tuning. I'm just looking for opinions on this alky decision. But, like Renthorin said, I'm more of a street cruiser at the same time trying to keep my buddy"s seriously modded '04 Cobra in check.

yeah those damned 03-4 cobras are mean with a few mods

 

[Not Avg 6]

Re: Great question!

Originally posted by Nick Micale
I am glad that someone finally asked this question the way you have.

You will get many replies of how good using alchy is on the street and how fast cars have gone at the strip. Just thought I would put in my opinion which is mainly on the "con" side.

My reason for this is that many owners use alchy injection as a substitute for race gas. It has limitations, and exceeding them will be expensive from my experience.

First, tuning with alchy and pump gas is difficult. Pump gas varies widely across the country in octane and blend, lots of areas have alcohol already blended in it.

Locally, with 91 octane pump gas [highest avail. here], 20-22 psi boost is about the safe level of performance. Have seen the carnage to head gaskets above that level.

With unleaded race gas, the alchy does not seem to be much help as far as increasing boost. Here is the real "danger", guys turn up boost 26-28 psi and no knock retard is present. However, a few runs at that level and head gaskets are done? Don't ask me to explaine how or why, I have just seen the results.

My advice to local guys going this way, is to remember, it is NOT a substitute for race gas. On the street, you can run more boost with pump gas usually past the point of decent traction. Get greedy with the boost, and you will pay the price.

Nick,
So, you're saying don't get to greedy and it's much better if you can get at least 93 in the tank?

 

[bruce]

Originally posted by sixgun86gn
Bruce,once again I HAVE used it.

I am done arguing.This guy asked for opinions...I gave mine.Nuff said.

??????????

Did I say you hadn't?.

You were arguing?, with who?, wasn't me.

 

[Quick6'n'-K.C.]

Originally posted by sixgun86gn
Well,put it this way.I can fill up on the same pump gas as you and not worry if the alky tank is full and still kick your tail on 23# (or whatever)+ Alky.Spend your $600,you will quickly catch up in the price of headgaskets and time working on the car.

BTW I actually built my production 4.1 for around $2000 total with the heads and everything.Not exactly $5000 or $6000.Don't blow it out of proportion.

I have had my car since may 1998 and ive ran best of 11.19 at 120mph and never blown a head gasket-
The only headgasket issue ive had with ANY of my cars was my 4.1 with reciever groove heads and felpro gaskets to match- that car sat outside during the winter and due to the 0° ambient temps, the headgasket shrank and poored antifreeze into cyl #3.

On this car I feel safe that my original head gaskets will hold up to the alky and higher boost no matter who says its bad-

If i build another motor it definitely wont be 2000.00, i spent that much just on my shortblock for my other car

so you really believe eveyone should build there motors and run low boost instead of high boost and bone stock motors?
thats fine if everyone could do work on there own cars and build motors for dirt cheap, but not everyone can do this...

the alky kit is something the average do it yourselfer can install and get impressive power for something not permenant, definitely easier to do than taking the motor in and out of the car.

Quick math lesson for anyone who thinks the headgaskets blow all the time if you run alky.
2000.00 CHEAP ASS ENGINE REBUILD VS.
600.00 alky kit makes for 1400.00 left over for head gaskets and ARP Head bolts
1400.00 in the bank
100.00 head bolts
1300.00 left over just for head gaskets-

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=33667&item=7954567215&rd=1

at 23.00 per complete gasket kit with composite head gaskets, that allows me to blow my head gaskets 56 times before reaching the 2000.00 cheap ass engine rebuild total.

so at an average of 1 set of gaskets per 8 years because ive yet to blow the gaskets since ive had the car, it will take me till the year 2453 to have spent the same amount of money that you did on the engine rebuild.
i dont think either one of us will be here then, glad i have my alky now and can enjoy it.
this also allows me to drive my car everyday to and from work 40 miles round trip everyday and have fun with the Z06 vettes on the highway..







BW

 

[sixgun86gn]

You forgot the cost of fresh oil,filter,intake gaskets,vave cover gaskets,coolant,shop time,possible bearing damage...etc.ALOT more than $23.

 

[Nick Micale]

Originally posted by Renthorin
....................As for the whole "no race gas = blown headgaskets" I thought you popped head gaskets because of detonation.

If that is true, then it makes no difference whether you use race gas or alky to supress detonation the end result is the same = no blown headgaskets.

If that statement is true, why is it that there are many blown head gaskets using alchy, and the owner swears NO knock retard ever?

I do not know, but there are a couple more factors like extreme cylinder pressure and pre-ignition that enters into the mix.