HRpartsNstuff
Member
- Joined
- May 27, 2001
I could be wrong, but your reply seemed to be trying to tear my post apart. Crazy thing was, I was actually agreeing with several points you made on an earlier post & trying to help the others that seemed confused on the whole issue. If you still disagree with something I have posted on this thread, I guess I can post details & proof to back it up if need be. I have devoted the last 12+ years to suspension development for street/strip cars, and have close to 100 years combined racing/suspension design & tuning experience including my friend & tech person Dave (answers phone line) & my brothers, that help in the design & testing process. I sure don't claim to know it all, but I make every attempt I can to know any info I pass on to be true & backed by facts or proven testing etc. If I hear the same thing 50 times from racers supporting something, I usually pass that on as coming from customer feedback or however I got the info. I don't just take 1 or 2 persons opinion & tell the world that's the way it is.
PS- For those installing the big solid swaybars in the stock location (onto the lower control arms) and having to "beat" them into position, here is some feedback that we have seen & heard:
The additional pressure that the bar has pushing the control arms apart will eventually tear up the bushings in the control arms. Of course I could give the "Wendy's" answer & say that you just need our setup, but I just wanted to point out that you should grind some material off the mounting surfaces until it goes in with little effort. This isn't easy or quick to do, but not doing it will eventually tear up the bushings for sure. The flange on the side of the bushings gets cut/ripped off & then things start to move around under power & the car can get real loose.
It's not the size of the bushing that tears up the mounting points. It's the fact that they're bushings and can't twist when the rear end articulates. There is no good bushing.
I just mentioned "small" mainly so people might realize the ones I was referring to. BUT, if they would have used a nylon bushing with a 1/2" cross section vs an 1/8" cross section, it would have let the bushing deform a little and take some bind out of it. That is a minor issue, but has been tested & proven. We are coming out with a new & improved Delrin upgrade for our arms that will work great on street/strip cars down into the 8's. For you to make a general statement that "there is no good bushing" is not a true statement. We have customers running mid 8's on our "old" delrin bushing design, and they work just fine. There are many out there that are NOT fine, so I can see where you could get that idea from.
You say adj uppers don't have any effect on instant center. Of course not. The adjustability of the bar has nothing to do with this. It's the angle of the bar or susspension geometry that changes this.
I just pointed out that adjusting the uppers didn't have any NOTICEABLE effect, for those that were confused in this thread as to the questions of what does what. Technically speaking, shortening the uppers (leaving everything else the same) DOES make a VERY slight difference, but didn't want to confuse the issue. Making a BIG pinion angle change by shortening the uppers only will pull the upper monting point on the rearend toward the other end of the arm. Only thing is, it doesn't pull it exactly straight thru the same instant center lines it had. As it shortens, it pivots/rotates the rearend off of the lower rear mounting point in an arc. If it moved in a straight line (in relationship with all mounting points), then the distance between the upper & lower mounts on the rearend would have to increase, which is impossible without moving the brackets. This is a VERY small amount & shouldn't really be considered for 99% of people out there, but it does effect the instant center (technically speaking). That was another reason we made 1/4" longer lowers, so you didn't have to shorten the uppers so far to get desired pinion angle.
You say spherical rod ends ride rough. This statement couldn't be more wrong.This is a silky smooth ball and socket joint. The ones I use are teflon lined. My care has never had a nicer ride.
This is just 100% of the feedback we get from our customers & what I see from others racing faster cars. It's not a huge issue for most of them, since true 8 and 9 sec cars usually don't go on very long trips & can be tolerated to a degree. It's not the MOVEMENT of the ball & socket that effect the ride quality, it's the lack of some material that can absorb vibrations and to reduce any shock transmitted from the road to the chassis (like rubber or poly). Being that you have teflon lining, that will help slightly to improve ride over non-lined rod ends, BUT as they wear out you will start to feel & hear a lot more than the non-lined ones would be (at same use level). You won't find the teflon in many super fast cars.
You say round is weaker than rectangle,yet every prostock car on the planet uses round.
I said round tube has weaker connections on the ENDS, because there is less area of contact to weld. As I said about the different GRADES of steel, I can buy stronger rectangle than round, and I can buy stronger round than rectangle. It all depends on the type of steel, what grade it is, and the process it was made with, and any process after it was made. Pro-Stock cars use round because they use top grade chromoly tubing that isn't available in rectangle shape, and weight is a critical issue with them.
You talk about the tubes being pulled off the U brackets. When you move the upper arms mounting points to the axle upward with the setup I use you don't have a U bracket.
That is definitely one type of "no-hop" bar that raise the upper mounting point, and you have 1 less "issue" to worry about back there then. I was referring to the more common setup that most upper adjustable arms look like, as pictured in topher455's post towards the end of pg 1.
There's no way that Burger King will ever say that Wendy's sells a good product. That's why I would never ask there advice about Wendy's products. When someone asks you for advice on susspensions you'll always say your products do it better because you sell them. It's not wise to take advice from someone who might stand to profit from you taking it.
In most cases you would be correct on that. BUT, as most that know me would agree, I post info here to HELP people out & answer questions. I am not taking the time to type all this to hopefully sell a suspension kit to someone out there reading it. One of the reasons this board has done so well over the years is that the average (new or old) car nut can benefit from other racers and manufacturers knowledge and experience. That is all I was trying to do here, whether you believe it or not is not an issue for me. We get most of our sales from our own customers passing on their experience to others.
Untill you sell an upper bar with a relocated mounting point at the axle, your bar does very little (in and of itself )to improve traction and is ineffective at preloading the susspension.
We sell upper control arms to reduce the flexing of the flimsy stock arms, and provide a greatly improved bushing, and on the adj ones, the ability to set pinion angle, along with big increase in strength & safety & appearance. We have seen cars get more traction & drop 2-3 tenths by getting the pinion angle set correctly on a faster car. We have seen stock & cheaper uppers tear apart & almost wreck the car & kill the driver. If you call that "very little" then so be it, we all got opinions.
The reason you sell a fat sway bar is because your arms can't be adjusted to preload the susspension. With the setup I've described you don't need a swaybar/bandage.
The swaybar is NOT a bandage at all, not sure where you got that idea from. Using airbags to preload the pass side is a Band-Aid approach, and worked decent when that was all that was available. Last I knew, the Dick Miller setup you described uses an anti-roll setup that goes up into the trunk area. That (and my swaybar/anti-roll system and most others) are what keeps the car level & going straight. You can only do so much with the control arms to prevent body roll during a hard launch. I am not saying that to try & sell you anything, since I see that probably isn't possible & not my concern. You can look at ANY fast car out there running a 10.5 tire, and you will find some sort of system on it to control the body roll and/or torque effects (over & above upper & lower arms).
I am a racer at heart & will support other racers as much as I can. I started my company off of friends & racers that saw what I was doing with my own "homemade" parts & they wanted me to make them a set. I can get just about ANY product currently made or available and offer it as my own (private label) or under their name. After looking at the many different designs out there over the years, we came up with our own design that gave even more benefits without all the shortcomings & negative side effects that many of the others had. Then made it with top quality materials & components with top notch craftsmanship.
I have seen & heard what works & what doesn't, and done 100's of tests to confirm it too. We make stuff that works as advertised, and so far 100% of our customers can confirm this. We make & sell parts to help racers go faster & safer & improve their car's overall appearance & performance, and stand behind every one of them. We do it for the love of racing & the racers, not to get rich. We could always make 1000's of Mustang parts with cheaper materials & parts, and make other parts that don't really work but still sell good, and get rich like many other "big name" companies out there, but we choose not to. We sell our products because we know every customer will be extremely satisfied with the parts, the craftsmanship, and the performance & safety they provide, along with the detailed instructions & easy installation & support before/during/and after their purchase. I personally enjoy going to the events & seeing the happy customer & hearing how our parts helped them out, and knowing they have a better chance at winning & not getting hurt. Soooo, I would really appreciate it if you could refrain from telling me (and everyone reading this) the reason you "THINK" I sell any of my products.
PS- For those installing the big solid swaybars in the stock location (onto the lower control arms) and having to "beat" them into position, here is some feedback that we have seen & heard:
The additional pressure that the bar has pushing the control arms apart will eventually tear up the bushings in the control arms. Of course I could give the "Wendy's" answer & say that you just need our setup, but I just wanted to point out that you should grind some material off the mounting surfaces until it goes in with little effort. This isn't easy or quick to do, but not doing it will eventually tear up the bushings for sure. The flange on the side of the bushings gets cut/ripped off & then things start to move around under power & the car can get real loose.