"scorpion Roller Rockerz"

[Chuck Leeper]

To the FWIW dept:
I am freshening up the stage 2 . Am adding a set of "uncracked" Champs, checking brgs and such.
Found a MAJOR problem w/ the individual Stud mounted roller rockers. The roller tips are frozen or very difficult to turn on all but 3 rockers.
These rockers have about 300 street miles and 20 passes on the track.
I can't tell if there are needle brgs on the shaft or if it's an "el cheapo" bushing or??
The fulcrum brgs seem to be good to go.
Some of the rough rollers feel as tho they have flat spots on the axle.

Anyone else seen this?? This appears to be a good way to lose a roller tip, screw up valve stems and retainers, etc and eventually find the scrap in the pan and or the oil pump!!
Anyone know who makes this junk??
All users should check to see if they too have this problem.

I am contacting the vendor to see where they came from and will post later what I find out.

REAL glad I have a set of T&D shaft rockers for the new heads!!
Come to think of it, the T/D's look EXACTLY like the cheapos, only on a shaft!!

More later.

 

[Nick Micale]

Originally posted by Chuck Leeper
To the FWIW dept:
.......................REAL glad I have a set of T&D shaft rockers for the new heads!!
Come to think of it, the T/D's look EXACTLY like the cheapos, only on a shaft!! .

Just looked at the Stage motor we tore down after one trip to the track. The Champion heads have all the exhaust seals off the guides and leaking oil badly. The Scorpions keep getting loose and had to be adjusted 2-3 times during tuning. The exhaust rocker is not made correctly as it is not centered on the valve tip.

Not to bad-mouth Champion, but these were their high dollar ported race heads and thought they would be good for more than a couple passes before major rework? Looks like T&D's will be on the short list of upgrades.

Would really like the set-up T&D uses for the M&A heads with the paired shaft roller rockers. Is that what you now have Chuck?

 

[Chuck Leeper]

Scorpion junk

Nick, I too have the exhaust seals off of several of the guides on the cracked heads I'm taking off!! I also noticed the rockers don't line up well w/ the valves. [I checked this B4 install, and found "what you have, is what you get". That's why I'm going to the shaft rockers from T/D]. I called Tom @ Champion when I found the p.rods nearly touching the head. He said "do not drill the holes out as the head is thin there due to the valves being relocated. He also said there's no problem w/ the way the rockers line up.DUH! OBVIOUSLY, there is!!
I suspect the mis-alignment caused SEVERE valve stem sideloading, thus the seals were pulled off and the roller tips were fried. I will look closely at the valve tips and see what I can find there. I did notice that the keeper groove in the valve I tried to take out was mushroomed to a point I could not get the valve out w/out filing the edge off. WTF??
As for the adjusters not staying tite, I always chuck the studs up in a lathe and cut the top end so it's flat and the set screw has a good surface to grip on. I think the set screws were "el cheapo" too and do not have the serrated contact surface on them. I'm going to look.

I had GOOD clearance on the retainer to seal @ full cam lift on these heads and found not only were the seals off, they were crushed to a point they split open. [They were VERY good as far as coil bind clearance was.] This engine has NEVER been over 6200.!! That's the rev limit I set in the FELPRO!!

Sounds to me like the folks @ Champion need to take a look at these problems.

I'll keep the info posted as I continue the iinspection.

 

[HighPSI]

If you are using the "R" heads, you are going to have problems because the valves are moved around. I prefer the T&D shaft mounted units because they allow you to take them apart and move the shims around to locate the rocker better. I would suspect that on-center and off-center motors are going to require diferant offsets, too.

 

[Chuck Leeper]

Roller rockerz

Cal, I have both the original "crackers" and the new "R" heads. the "Scorpion" rockers were on the early heads, not the "R"s. I have shaft rockers from T&D for the new heads. [As I recall, the early 8 & 14 bolt heads had the valves moved too, as I had to get different [longer] rocker shafts when I went from cast iron to alum.]
I am in the process of setting them, [T&D] up on the heads as we "speak".
I have found so far:
1. the 3 head studs under the shaft mtg bars are too long by about 1/8". Had to cut them off. [This measurement was made w/ head on the block w/ a used gasket.]
2. The "measuring gage" that came w/ the rockers shows I needed a .030 shim pak under the shaft mting plate. Even w/ this shim, the plate retainer bolts were 1/4" too long and had to be cut off.
3. It appears the pushrod holes in the heads are not big enuf to prevent the p. rods from rubbing the wall of the hole. Relocating the rocker on the shaft will put the tip off to 1 side of the valve stem. I'm not sure what to do here as the advice from Tom was to not drill them out as they will go into the ports. IDEAS???
Do you know who makes this "Scorpion junk"??

Back to massaging my headz!!


PS: How did the first trip to the track go??

 

[S2V6RACER]

Re: Roller rockerz

Originally posted by Chuck Leeper
3. It appears the pushrod holes in the heads are not big enuf to prevent the p. rods from rubbing the wall of the hole. Relocating the rocker on the shaft will put the tip off to 1 side of the valve stem. I'm not sure what to do here as the advice from Tom was to not drill them out as they will go into the ports.

Drill them larger and install sleeve??? I don't think YOU should have to do anything, as they should work. I know it may be easier to take things into your own hands.

JMHO.

Get a prescription for some anti-stress medication. That might help keep you in a good mood.

Good luck, I hope I don't have the same problem with mine.

 

[TurboTR]

FWIW, my engine guy found that several of the seats were out of concentric with the valve guides on my heads, and that could possibly cause problems. It's worth checking now if you have the heads off IMO.

TurboTR

 

[HighPSI]

Like I have posted earlier. If you have an on-center motor you will need to run offset lifters in at least 3 holes.

 

[Chuck Leeper]

OFFSET LIFTERZ

Cal, I guess that poses a question too!! Where would 1 get a hyd roller lifer w/ an offset seat????
I recall you showing me the offset lifters at BG when you bent a valve. I think you also said they were necessary because your "R" heads were equipped w/ valves bigger than the current 1.900/1.600 setup. Thus the valves were moved even further apart. [Now an "option" on the "R" head???]
I believe you also use a mechanical roller???

It seems that the further this thread progresses, the more we find we have unanswered questions and confusion reigns supreme!!!

Oh well, back to pullin out what little hair I have left!!
I think I'll just start NEW YRS celebration a bit early

 

[9SECVSIX]

Chuck, I have used a band aid for Champions poor geometry work Lash Caps with good results, I've run 200 lbs seat pressure, no rocker problems only one broken rocker stud while using the scorpions Going with T&D's on the new R heads
9secvsix
9.4's@145

 

[Bobtempest]

Are most of the problems with the on center Stage engines or the "R" heads when using the Scorpion rockers? The off centers seem to line up close with the correct rods. I have experienced one of the lock nuts backing off. They do look kinda cheap and I wondered who made them.

 

[Chuck Leeper]

ON CTR ??

My engine is on-ctr and I think Nick's is too. I have not used the lash caps and am running 130# springs w/ 350 open on the CC hyd roller. [218/212 W/ .545 total lift. It appears the roller tip brgs,[if there are any], have taken a dump and locked up on all but 2-3 rockers. I never had them come loose as Nick reported.

The problem, as I've already found and reported, is the interference w/ the p.rods and the walls of the holes in the heads. I had no problems w/ the alignment on the "cracker" heads, only minor rub at no lift position. The sides of the p. rods bear this out as they have only a SLIGHT rub pattern, not even thru the coating.
what I can't figure out is why, when 90% of the stage 2's are on-ctr, yhat the heads are not cast w/ a pattern for them to work???

Oh well, More later.

 

[TurboTR]

Is that enough spring for a roller cam?

TurboTR

 

[SPEEDSTAR]

Springs

Yea , me too............seems like the heavier hyd. roller lifter would need more spring

 

[Bobtempest]

Tom kinda talked me out of the "R" heads last year. He warned me that I might have to do some testing and fitting and said unless I was going faster than 9.5sec. He would use a set of the new thicker castings fully ported. He spooked me. I, at that time, had already had enough headaches.

 

[Nick Micale]

Re: Springs

Originally posted by SPEEDSTAR
Yea , me too............seems like the heavier hyd. roller lifter would need more spring

We have been running the 130-135# springs on hdraulic rollers to well over 6000 RPM in quite a few cars.

 

[Chuck Leeper]

"R" heads and??

My info says that the so called "R" heads are all that's available now. [for the 14 bolt design anyway.] The reason I think Tom was warning of "fitting" was at the at that time, a yr ago, they were still in development stage.
Further, I believe that all the alum heads are of the "spread valve" design. I had to replace the shafts on the T&D's when I went from iron to alum, [Production engine], due to the relocation of the valves.[In order to get the larger valves in] The guys at T&D knew exactly what was going on and had the parts to me in 3 days. NOTE: In addition to the longer shafts, the alum spacers were different and you had to relocate some of the shims.

Further investigation on the "R"s that I have now, shows VERY little p.rod contact, and only on some cyls. actually no more than on the early heads that cracked. A bit of "P&P" and they;ll be fine.
I did check the location of all the p.rod holes w/ respect to the intake surface and find they are all exactly the same distance.

It is also my understanding, [from the vendor I got them from] you can "custom order" these new heads w/ even larger valves than 1.900/1.600.

NOW, to get the mega buck fuel pump, reg and filter system in and go to a "horsemeat" BBQ!!!

 

[TurboTR]

Like Cal says, we had to go with several offset lifters on mine. The rockers have to be shimmed out a bit to suit also.

TurboTR