Seeking 60 ft advice on the way to 9's

#1
Im trying to hit 9's which would seem easily possible with my setup (shown below). It seems like I should be doing better 60 ft times. The best was only 1.55. It was hot and humid in the 90's which is part of it of course, the temp gauge never got over 195.

The ten passes I made last Friday were all off the trans brake and 2 step. The 2 step is running off the TR6 and is adjustable. I started early runs launching with the 2 step set at about 3800rpm that will get close to 20psi of boost at launch. Each run I raised the rpm range 200 or so all the way up until 4800 which was the highest I got to. I kept expecting it to blow off the tires but it didnt.

Im still learning the car so I cant be positive of the max boost, fuel pressure, or AFR all at once. I try to watch them closely but I havent quite got a system down. Max boost is reading 30psi, launches were good with not much wheel spin, and it pulls hard all the way to finish.

One thing I realized is that I was shifting around 5500 or so and I should have let it run up to about 6100 with the cam I have (I dont know exactly what it is at the moment). That alone may help hit high nines, it just seems that I could be hitting a 1.4 60 ft.

One pass I had a weird code pop up on the edash. It was showing max injector duty cycle. I think it was after bumping off the rev limiter during the burnout, so I cleared it to see if it would return but it didnt. I also got a cam sync error a couple of times.

Any help or guidance is greatly appreciated. I should be going to an 1/8 track with in a couple weeks. Id like to hit 9's at least once and a 6.3 1/8 before I let her retire for a while.

timeslips.jpg


Engine:
109 Full Roller & Gridled. Built by Induction Research out of Shakopee MN. Steel Crank, Diamond Pistons, K1 Rods,
Champion CNC Ported Iron Heads, T&D Roller Rockers.
Champion Ported stock intake
Precision 6466 Billet Ball Bearing Turbo
TR6 Ignition
GN1 Performance headers
GN1 Performance 3 inch down pipe with external gate
RJC Power Plate
Aluminum Radiator using stock fan

Engine Control:
Fast XFI 2.0 with E-Dash tuned by Cal Hartline running on E98 / E85

Intercooler:
RJC Mega Front Mount Intercooler


Exhaust:
Pypes with 3" cutout cat delete

Transmission:
Extreme Automatics Stage 2 – 200R4 with Electric trans-brake.
PTC 9.5 Non-LU Converter (3800 stall I think)
External Transmission Cooler
Huges Deep Pan
Quick Silver Ratchet Shifter

Rear End:
Quick Performance Ford 9’ – Full spool with 35 spline axels. 3.50 gears
H&R Parts Anti-Sway Bar
UMI Control Arms top and bottom
Rear Control arm bracing
Detroit Speed & Engineering Double adjustable Coil-Overs
3 ½ Inch Aluminon Driveshaft by Denny’s Driveshaft

Frame Notched and extra bracing

Roll Bar/Cage: by GNS Performance

Weld RTS Rims all around with 325/50/15 Hoosier Drag Radials and front skinnies.

Front Suspension: QA1 R single adjustable Coil-Overs

Fuel System:
Aluminum Fuel Cell by Aeromotive With an:
Aeromotive Eliminator in tank pump and
Aeromotive pressure regulator
160lb Injectors
Kenny Bell Boost A Pump
-10 supply lines
-8 Return

Fiberglass bumper fillers front and back
Fiberglass Hood – still have original steel
Fiberglass front bumper – still have original steel
 

pacecarta

MAGNA
Staff member
#2
you're going to need more HP
127mph wont get 9s ..you need 135 out the back
check your plugs make sure all 6 are working


with the ptc I launch at around 8-10psi and 4000-4200
 
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#3
Its already run 10.0 up North. I have better air in Texas so 9's should be possible just being here, Im just missing something somewhere.
I'll change plugs and try a tighter gap on the next run. I already have TR6. I cant believe launching at 3800 has the same 60' as launching at 4800.
 

RUQWKNF

KEEPER OF SECRETS
Staff member
#6
ET is all made in the sixty foot, but you gotta make the hp by the 1/8th to bust into the 9's. If you're running in the heat with hot track temps and bad ambient conditions, (think Density Altitude) that and the sloppy track are working against you. I would recommend you start recording your D/A and track conditions after each pass. Use the time on your timeslip and the free apps online that typically show D/A for the track you're at, to get a better picture of your real world conditions. You will see what good air, aka low D/A can do to your mph. If the car has been 10 flat before at a different track, then the conditions were definitely better. Also, I agree with what pacecarta said, you need more power. Your mph in the first half of your run is down. 103 mph in the 1/8th is definitely mid to high 10 second mph in the 1/4th You need to be in the 107-110 range in the 1/8th in order to run 9.9x's. Ex: my best pass years ago with my 3650# race weight "86 T-Type, was a 10.07 @ 135. The 1/8th was a 6.30 @ 109 with a 1.46 sixty foot. This was on a 12psi trans brake launch. The one 9.90 pass that Dave drove it too, had a slightly better 1.45 60ft and at the time, he was 120#'s lighter than me. :sneaky: Given, this was a Stage II off center 278 ci, TSE class setup, running 33psi max with an old PT74 GTQ turbo, on straight C-16 with 24* timing in all gears. This engine also had a baby 224/224 hyd flat tappet cam, not a roller. Today's technology has way surpassed that older tech and I've witnessed a car run 132 mph in the 1/4 and bust a 9.99, but it was not repeated. More of a one hit wonder, screamer in the 1/8th setup. In the end, you definitely need to be in the 1.49 - 1.45 sixty foot range to get the ET down, as well as needing the hp/mph by the 1/8th. It looks like you've got all the right pieces, but you must find out what cam is in it so you will know for sure what the rpm / power curve. IMO, 5500 is definitely short shifting for a hyd roller cam on a 235 or a stroker 109. If the previous owner was saying he shifted it at 6100, I would at least creep up on it like 5800, 5900, etc.

Here's a few questions. What timing are you running in all gears? What plugs and what are the gaps on? Are you running a .63 A/R Buick 3-bolt turbine housing on that turbo, or the .85 A/R Buick 3-bolt turbine housing? With that combo, I would definitely be running the .85 3-bolt Buick housing. That is unless you have a T4 tangential setup? The .63 3-bolt really starts chocking the flow and running into back pressure issues at high boost levels, especially if it's a stroker 109. If it's a 235ci, it can still cause issues, but not quite as bad. The turbo itself is more than capable of making the power, but the 3-bolt Buick turbine housing is the limiting factor. Are you datalogging turbo back pressure?

I would also keep an eye on that fuel pump. The Eliminator pump IIRC, was very similar in design to the regular A1000, but with a slight flow upgrade on regular gasoline and race gas. I wouldn't doubt that you had a max injector duty cycle warning with that pump. I've never been a huge fan of their pumps on a Turbo Buick, mainly because of the unique pressures we tend to run with high boost. (Aka 73-80psi under WOT) And if the pump can't flow the gph needed, you can run into issues. Aeromotive states running e85 with that pump lowers the supported/claimed fwhp by 30%. IMHO, that's being very generous and low, especially if you are mixing e98 and e85. Is this your tank/pump setup you're running? https://www.aeromotiveinc.com/product/brushless-eliminator-fuel-cell-15-gallon/

As a bare minimum, I would test your fuel pump and find out what it is flowing gph wise at your high WOT fuel pressure. If it were mine and you wanted to stay intank, I would go with a either a high 680LPH double pumper setup, or a Weldon DB2015-A external pump and be done. One last item, how long have the filter elements been on the car? Did you install the fuel system, or was it like that when you got it? One issue that can bite you, is if the lines were not completely flushed after the fuel system was installed, and the filters were not either cleaned (if running SS elements) or replaced after a few tanks of fuel. You could have a clogged filter element or two. What is your injector duty cycle on your highest mph pass? And what was the boost on? Have you had anyone video the car at the start, so you can see what's going on at launch?

These are some of the things I would be looking at.
You've got the hard parts and the right person tuning it, but you could have a few issues working against you power wise. And racing in the late summer heat is not good for making power.
Let us know and hope some of this helps.

-Patrick-
 
#10
Thanks to everyone for your replies! I very much appreciate the time and effort into RUQWKNF's very detailed response.

I still havent been able to determine the cam used, but I verified the rev limiter is at 6100 by Cal​
Plugs are Autolite 23's at 30gap (Ill be trying HGK's at 20 gap next)​
I notice timing getting to 30+ under boost (I should be keeping a closer eye on gauges)​
Boost gauge is right on 30 psi, but Ive seen 33-34 before new pypes exhaust with 3" cut out (replaced a single 3" side exit)​
I dont know the turbo exhaust housing A/R but its a 3 bolt​
The pump screen is clean as well as the filter. I just flushed and cleaned the whole system a few weeks ago. (the pump has blown a 30 amp fuse on a couple of occasions if that says anything about how hard its working)​
The fuel system was all installed about 4000 miles ago. -10 supply and -8 return. Pressure reads 45ish psi at idle, 60+ or more on boost.​
No logs taken on the runs, but Ill start getting some. Im still pretty new to FAST, not to tuning.​
I dont know how to check injector duty cycle, Ill check my laptop when I get home.​
I have a couple vids, it looks like and felt like, after the initial hit the car would loose just a bit of power and then gets back in it. Ill try to post a vid if I can.​

I think the general consensus is several things. The heat, D/A, and track conditions all played the biggest part of at least a few tenths. The easy fix is my short shifting. I was definitely shifting early from first to second, which may be worth a tenth or two. Improvements in those two areas could be very close to 9.9.

On another note, Im glad I inquired, because I think Im fuel starving at high rpms. I need to bump supply pressure before anything else. Im looking into an add on inline pump to activate off a hobbs switch. Or even better a belt driven pump.

I can't believe you get a 1.55 with no spin and 20psi launch
I couldnt either. The track was prepped half way through the night and the 325's were sticking like crazy.
 
#11
Here we go. I think this was a 4600 rpm launch. Seems to fall on its nose for a split second.

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<iframe width="560" height="315" src="
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RUQWKNF

KEEPER OF SECRETS
Staff member
#12
Don't do a secondary, inline pump. You need a pump that can support your fuel requirements.

Also, at idle, with the vacuum line off the regulator, if your fuel pressure is set to say 43psi and you hit it with 30psi of boost, that fuel pressure gauge must read 73psi and hold it throughout the run. Anything less and as I suspect, that pump can't put out.
Your solution at that point is a better, single, fuel pump. But whatever you do, do not put an inline pump together with that Aeromotive pump. That is a band-aid old school method, aka back before we had good high flowing fuel pumps. And IMO, you don't need a belt drive pump. Just going with a Weldon DB2015A or a DB2025A external pump will cure your fuel feed issues.
Your first video kinda looks like the car porpoised a little bit. IE: hooked then unloaded.
 
#13
Point well taken. Thanks again for your time! I'll make a test hit and pay better attention to the fuel pressure to be sure, but I bet youre correct about the pump not being able to keep up.
 
#14
I found a note in a box with build details for a tune from Cal that shows a 216/219 cam being used. Im not sure about the lift or spring rate but 1:7 rockers are listed as well, so Im assuming well over 500 lift, it also states a CR of 8.7, and a 70mm TB. The shift light is set at 6100.

Im working on upgrading the fuel pump. Any additional thoughts on the cam?
 

turbobuick

Well-Known Member
Staff member
#16
Point well taken. Thanks again for your time! I'll make a test hit and pay better attention to the fuel pressure to be sure, but I bet youre correct about the pump not being able to keep up.
I would slow your roll there, before you go changing your tune, combo and fuel system I would learn how to use the datalogging features with your fuel mgt system and find out exactly where your at before you change anything!

You asked about 60', increase your rev limiter and leave harder and get a real set of shocks. The QA1's may work but if the car is hooking then unloading like stated above you may need to tighten the front shock settings. IME the QA1s are not ideal and you would be better off with a double adj. I had them on my TSO car and ended up having to have them revalved on shock dyno, there is much better stuff out there today for a bolt in coil over set up.
 
#17
What do the logs show?
Is the fp being logged?
Hey Chuck! Im still very green with xfi so I havent gotten very good with pulling or reading logs yet. I dont think Im logging FP. I watched the gauge pretty close the other day and saw 43 psi at idle and 80 psi wot to redline from 1st to 2nd (I wasnt at a track). I'll get out and get a couple of logs pulled and post up here later today or tomorrow.
 
#18
I would slow your roll there, before you go changing your tune, combo and fuel system I would learn how to use the datalogging features with your fuel mgt system and find out exactly where your at before you change anything!

You asked about 60', increase your rev limiter and leave harder and get a real set of shocks. The QA1's may work but if the car is hooking then unloading like stated above you may need to tighten the front shock settings. IME the QA1s are not ideal and you would be better off with a double adj. I had them on my TSO car and ended up having to have them revalved on shock dyno, there is much better stuff out there today for a bolt in coil over set up.
My shocks are actually Detroit Speed double adjustable. I need to change my sig. Im open to any tips in that area as well. I need to check the fronts but the rears are set at 12 on top and 16 on bottom. The way it drives on the street Im assuming the fronts are set equally between rebound and compression, maybe 10-12 clicks.

I had about 10 passes the night of the time slips I posted, and started the 2 step at 3600 with trans brake, progressively going up until I got to 4800. If I got traction the 60' still never changed 1.5-1.6. 3800 "felt" the best but no difference in time.

It goes without saying that I need more seat time, Im just trying to get as knowledgeable as I can between track visits. So thank you all for your time and expertise!
 
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turbobuick

Well-Known Member
Staff member
#19
If your hitting the tires with 1200 higher RPM and the tires aren't spinning and the car is still 60' that same something isnt right. I would be looking at the TQ conv. Outside of tires there is not a single part on your car that will affect how well the car will ET more than the TQ conv.

I wouldn't change anything until you get the datalogger sorted out and can get actual data you can look at. You will be able to see exactly what RPM and boost you left at, know what your AFR and boost is going down the track and be able to see your trap RPM and speed along with shift points and what the RPM is doing on the shifts. You need all of this info before you start changing anything otherwise you are just guessing.

Good luck and post up some data to look at when you get some.
 
#20
If your hitting the tires with 1200 higher RPM and the tires aren't spinning and the car is still 60' that same something isnt right. I would be looking at the TQ conv. Outside of tires there is not a single part on your car that will affect how well the car will ET more than the TQ conv.

I wouldn't change anything until you get the datalogger sorted out and can get actual data you can look at. You will be able to see exactly what RPM and boost you left at, know what your AFR and boost is going down the track and be able to see your trap RPM and speed along with shift points and what the RPM is doing on the shifts. You need all of this info before you start changing anything otherwise you are just guessing.

Good luck and post up some data to look at when you get some.
Any advice on posting a log file? Im getting an upload error "not an allowed extension".