Seimens 60#ers vs Seimens 80#ers on a mid to high 10 sec, full weight combo.

[RUQWKNF]

Here's some good questions for those who have first hand exp. After searching for a bit, I could not find any recent threads that fit. So I thought it might benefit hearing some current real world experiences.

FWIW, I have run 60's and a v5.7 TT chip on my last car, as well as currently on a buddies car and they are a great combo with regards to street ability. But with these 80# H/I injectors being relatively new to me since I got out of Buicks back in 2010, it has me asking a few questions. I would love to hear some real world experiences from those who might have gone from 60# v5.7 chip combo, to 80# with a matching TT chip combo.
Specifically these questions.

- Are the street manners with the 80#ers close to the same as the 60#ers? Tip in, cruise, etc. I know MPG might take a slight hit, so no worries there.

- Are guys with just a basic MAF Translator, 3.5" MAF and SM/Powerlogger able to fine tune the combo with these 80#ers and a v5.7 chip, or do they need the v6.1 chip with WBO2 capability to maximize the tune/street manners?

- Assuming the car has the right pump/pumps and upgraded -8/-6 lines with hanger, will you have a legitimate 15-20% injector duty cycle buffer with the 80#ers? In other words, 60#ers would be pushed very hard to reach this goal in a full weight GN, where as the 80#ers should have a slight reserve left in them, with regards to inj duty cycle.

In the past I have run 84# low imp injectors with a FAST system on RU and the street manners took quite awhile to nail down. I would just like to hear about some of y'alls current experiences. And just for the record, my end goal is mid to high 10's full weight, using a PTE turbo (specs are CLASSIFIED as of now) a single nozzle alky kit, stock ECM with MAF Translator, 3.5" MAF, 4" MAF pipe and 4" cold air setup, Scanmaster v2.1 with a Powerlogger, good exhaust, -8/-6 lines with hanger, a good Racetronix pump, stock style C3I ignition and all the normal stuff we do. Ported iron heads, ported stock intake, hyd roller cam, 1.6 roller rockers, 70mm t-body, PTE plenum with RJC ADPP plate. And run it till the engine eventually starts degrading with mileage and use, or heaven forbid, DOTC membership status is acheived. Then address that when the time comes. I plan on running the boost where it needs to be run and don't really want to "weight reduction" the car other than the wheels. Besides, I'm doing the personal weight reduction thing myself.

So let's hear it fellas.
What say ye?


-Patrick-

 

[DR BOOST]

going from 60's to 80's with a tt chip....I couldn't tell any difference. he has the chip game down to perfection.

 

[Mr.Spool]

Here's some good questions for those who have first hand exp. After searching for a bit, I could not find any recent threads that fit. So I thought it might benefit hearing some current real world experiences.

FWIW, I have run 60's and a v5.7 TT chip on my last car, as well as currently on a buddies car and they are a great combo with regards to street ability. But with these 80# H/I injectors being relatively new to me since I got out of Buicks back in 2010, it has me asking a few questions. I would love to hear some real world experiences from those who might have gone from 60# v5.7 chip combo, to 80# with a matching TT chip combo.
Specifically these questions.

- Are the street manners with the 80#ers close to the same as the 60#ers? Tip in, cruise, etc. I know MPG might take a slight hit, so no worries there.

- Are guys with just a basic MAF Translator, 3.5" MAF and SM/Powerlogger able to fine tune the combo with these 80#ers and a v5.7 chip, or do they need the v6.1 chip with WBO2 capability to maximize the tune/street manners?

- Assuming the car has the right pump/pumps and upgraded -8/-6 lines with hanger, will you have a legitimate 15-20% injector duty cycle buffer with the 80#ers? In other words, 60#ers would be pushed very hard to reach this goal in a full weight GN, where as the 80#ers should have a slight reserve left in them, with regards to inj duty cycle.

In the past I have run 84# low imp injectors with a FAST system on RU and the street manners took quite awhile to nail down. I would just like to hear about some of y'alls current experiences. And just for the record, my end goal is mid to high 10's full weight, using a PTE turbo (specs are CLASSIFIED as of now) a single nozzle alky kit, stock ECM with MAF Translator, 3.5" MAF, 4" MAF pipe and 4" cold air setup, Scanmaster v2.1 with a Powerlogger, good exhaust, -8/-6 lines with hanger, a good Racetronix pump, stock style C3I ignition and all the normal stuff we do. Ported iron heads, ported stock intake, hyd roller cam, 1.6 roller rockers, 70mm t-body, PTE plenum with RJC ADPP plate. And run it till the engine eventually starts degrading with mileage and use, or heaven forbid, DOTC membership status is acheived. Then address that when the time comes. I plan on running the boost where it needs to be run and don't really want to "weight reduction" the car other than the wheels. Besides, I'm doing the personal weight reduction thing myself.

So let's hear it fellas.
What say ye?


-Patrick-

60s will hit your goals easily with the right pump,pressure,and volts.

 

[bison]

The SD 80 aren’t 80 unless the pressure is in the 50’s. The SD 60’s are a little over 60 with pressure in the low 40’s. So expect 15-20% more fuel out of the 80’s with similar pressures


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[turbo89]

The SD 80 aren’t 80 unless the pressure is in the 50’s. The SD 60’s are a little over 60 with pressure in the low 40’s. So expect 15-20% more fuel out of the 80’s with similar pressures


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I'd call your vendor and bring this up .. perhaps they are a lower tier supplier .. the 80's do have variants so perhaps the ones you've bought were of that type...

out of all the sets I've flowed they always were at the upper limit of the tolerance range.. typically 82 @ 3 bar .. but I work with a tier 1 supplier and their tolerance ranges are much smaller.
Most will advertise an injector @ 80 but in fact they are getting factory blems that didn't meet Tier 1 criteria so get sold to tier 2 suppliers for less.. of course with a hit on flow ( SAME PART # !!! )
There is nothing wrong with the injectors.. just that they flow less and didn't meet Tier 1 criteria...

The 80's can be pushed REAL REAL hard and run stupid rail pressure and flow .. yet remain very controllable at lower DC .. IF I couldn't get an ID injector .. the Siemens 80's would be my first pick on anything from a 9 second to 12 second cars. They work Extremely well.

 

[Ernie GN]

I'd call your vendor and bring this up .. perhaps they are a lower tier supplier .. the 80's do have variants so perhaps the ones you've bought were of that type...

out of all the sets I've flowed they always were at the upper limit of the tolerance range.. typically 82 @ 3 bar .. but I work with a tier 1 supplier and their tolerance ranges are much smaller.
Most will advertise an injector @ 80 but in fact they are getting factory blems that didn't meet Tier 1 criteria so get sold to tier 2 suppliers for less.. of course with a hit on flow ( SAME PART # !!! )
There is nothing wrong with the injectors.. just that they flow less and didn't meet Tier 1 criteria...

The 80's can be pushed REAL REAL hard and run stupid rail pressure and flow .. yet remain very controllable at lower DC .. IF I couldn't get an ID injector .. the Siemens 80's would be my first pick on anything from a 9 second to 12 second cars. They work Extremely well.

Glad to hear because I just got 80 Siemens flow matched.

 

[turbo89]

Glad to hear because I just got 80 Siemens flow matched.

And if you think about what you paid extra for I have to ask ... do you know why you got them ???

Lets say they are all identical in flow ... does each cylinder flow the same amount of air ? Can you adjust anything on a cyl by cyl basis ?

 

[Ernie GN]

And if you think about what you paid extra for I have to ask ... do you know why you got them ???

Lets say they are all identical in flow ... does each cylinder flow the same amount of air ? Can you adjust anything on a cyl by cyl basis ?

They are new and sealed with receipt from Turbo tweak
I didn't pay extra. I got them from a member
$250

 

[turbo89]

They are new and sealed with receipt from Turbo tweak
I didn't pay extra. I got them from a member
$250

Missing the point .. I wasn't specifically referring to you.. I was trying to point out that can the matched flow really be put to use ? More a heads up to the original OP

 

[Ernie GN]

Missing the point .. I wasn't specifically referring to you.. I was trying to point out that can the matched flow really be put to use ? More a heads up to the original OP

Oh
I have no idea. I'm about as green as April.
But yeah not all cylinders flow exactly the same.

From what I've learned seems like the new engine management you could adjust fuel cylinder by cylinder.
You would know more tho

 

[turbo89]

Oh
I have no idea. I'm about as green as April.
But yeah not all cylinders flow exactly the same.

From what I've learned seems like the new engine management you could adjust fuel cylinder by cylinder.
You would know more tho

Interesting you bring up new engine management .. the new stuff is so much more advanced than what was out in the last 5 years its just stupid ..

your gonna like those 80's .. and to the OP.. go with the 80's driveability is on par with the 60's .. which both those injectors are light years ahead of the crap that was run a decade ago.

 

[bison]

I'd call your vendor and bring this up .. perhaps they are a lower tier supplier .. the 80's do have variants so perhaps the ones you've bought were of that type...

out of all the sets I've flowed they always were at the upper limit of the tolerance range.. typically 82 @ 3 bar .. but I work with a tier 1 supplier and their tolerance ranges are much smaller.
Most will advertise an injector @ 80 but in fact they are getting factory blems that didn't meet Tier 1 criteria so get sold to tier 2 suppliers for less.. of course with a hit on flow ( SAME PART # !!! )
There is nothing wrong with the injectors.. just that they flow less and didn't meet Tier 1 criteria...

The 80's can be pushed REAL REAL hard and run stupid rail pressure and flow .. yet remain very controllable at lower DC .. IF I couldn't get an ID injector .. the Siemens 80's would be my first pick on anything from a 9 second to 12 second cars. They work Extremely well.

Lol. No. Doesn’t matter to me as long as they are all close in flow


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[TurboBob]

There is no such thing as too much data. (presuming accurate data....). With flow matched injectors you have "flow tested" injectors, and some data.

You get quality assurance out of the deal.

You can decide which cylinders to install them on.

At least you will have more data about your build. If one cylinder is lean, you don't wonder (as much) if it is the injector.

Bob

 

[Ernie GN]

There is no such thing as too much data. (presuming accurate data....). With flow matched injectors you have "flow tested" injectors, and some data.

You get quality assurance out of the deal.

You can decide which cylinders to install them on.

At least you will have more data about your build. If one cylinder is lean, you don't wonder (as much) if it is the injector.

Bob

I imagine it’s like building an engine and thinking:
Not All my pistons cc match
It’s ok let’s keep going.
Cylinder head cc don’t match.
it’s OK let’s keep going

It’s about improving, making things better

If not having things even as possible didn’t matter.
I guess that rjc race plate doesn’t work

 

[turbo89]

There is no such thing as too much data. (presuming accurate data....). With flow matched injectors you have "flow tested" injectors, and some data.

You get quality assurance out of the deal.

You can decide which cylinders to install them on.

At least you will have more data about your build. If one cylinder is lean, you don't wonder (as much) if it is the injector.

Bob

Ok ... so on the static side you have 6 injectors that all flow the same .. so it wont matter what injector goes where .. your still not not taking care of lean cylinders nor can you unless you bite the bullet and invest another $3K to correct those cylinders .. most of the new crowd just tunes with a single wide band and never look at lean cylinders . Some of the old timers read the plugs and tune to the leanest ones.. your going to give up something somewhere but at least you have a workaround and can tune around it .... individual cyl airflow and inability to individually optimize fuel you cant get around without $$$

Now on the flip side .. say I have 2 injectors that flow 75 ,2 that flow 77 , and 2 that flow 79 .... tell me on my engine where am I going to put each one ?
Damn that guess was wrong and I just further leaned out 2 cylinders and now im overfueling 4 .. if you don't read plugs you wont have any idea.. how many guys read plugs or have EGT setups .. 5% ? Whats the variance on individual cyls on a typical low to mid 11 second buick ? bet its a boatload more than the flow spread on a good set of 80's

Final note .. how much power are you really leaving on the table ? On higher horsepower cars ... are you really chasing 30-40 hp ?? On a 700 hp car ??? If so then you pay the coin and
get a DFI but that just seems silly to me unless your racing the car .. on a lower hp car Its a moot point.

To me I could care less about the static side though .. injectors can be had all day that are within 2% static .. where I wont tolerate the differential is on the dynamic side.. which is where you see it right away and you have no work around for this ... again unless you spend $$$.

Is it better to have a set matched than not .. Sure

But for the average guy on here .. won't make a bit of difference.

 

[Ernie GN]

Ok ... so on the static side you have 6 injectors that all flow the same .. so it wont matter what injector goes where .. your still not not taking care of lean cylinders nor can you unless you bite the bullet and invest another $3K to correct those cylinders .. most of the new crowd just tunes with a single wide band and never look at lean cylinders . Some of the old timers read the plugs and tune to the leanest ones.. your going to give up something somewhere but at least you have a workaround and can tune around it .... individual cyl airflow and inability to individually optimize fuel you cant get around without $$$

Now on the flip side .. say I have 2 injectors that flow 75 ,2 that flow 77 , and 2 that flow 79 .... tell me on my engine where am I going to put each one ?
Damn that guess was wrong and I just further leaned out 2 cylinders and now im overfueling 4 .. if you don't read plugs you wont have any idea.. how many guys read plugs or have EGT setups .. 5% ? Whats the variance on individual cyls on a typical low to mid 11 second buick ? bet its a boatload more than the flow spread on a good set of 80's

Final note .. how much power are you really leaving on the table ? On higher horsepower cars ... are you really chasing 30-40 hp ?? On a 700 hp car ??? If so then you pay the coin and
get a DFI but that just seems silly to me unless your racing the car .. on a lower hp car Its a moot point.

To me I could care less about the static side though .. injectors can be had all day that are within 2% static .. where I wont tolerate the differential is on the dynamic side.. which is where you see it right away and you have no work around for this ... again unless you spend $$$.

Is it better to have a set matched than not .. Sure

But for the average guy on here .. won't make a bit of difference.

I have to agree with this.
Yes I’m green to this and I’m crazy but I’m not stupid. I can understand when people explain it to me like you did.
Thinking back
With the new engine management systems they have now. You can adjust your fuel cylinder to cylinder.
So that means flow matched injectors are not needed at all.

And for the average guy I’d take the $100 that you will Save from not buying flow matched injectors.
And get a rjc race plate.

 

[dank GN]

I recommend 80s to everyone that’s going to buy injectors. I wish someone would have told me to just go straight to 80s it would have saved me some cash . Instead of buying 42,60, then 80s . The 80 drive just fine on the street as long as you have the correct chip programed for them

 

[RUQWKNF]

Thanks for your feedback turbo89 and everyone else. I'm relieved to hear such good things about the 80's and follow exactly what you all are saying. I have decided to go with a flow matched set of 80's for sure. I will also be using a RJC ADPP on the stock ported plenum now, and when I upgrade to a 70mm Accufab t-body with a PTE plenum in the future. Back in the day, I saw first hand the testing results of those plates with both style upper plenums, on both a stock untouched intake and a fully ported stock intake. It sold me then and I'm still sold on them today. This combo won't ever get out of control like I've seen in the past with not only my own stuff, but my friends cars. It's a never ending expensive, fun / morale killer with these cars when you start chasing a number, wanting to be top dog in a class, or trying to be the king of the street. One thing I've learned over the years, is there will always be someone faster, someone quicker, a car that makes more power, a car that dominates a class, etc, etc. To me, these cars are meant to be fun, something that should always bring a smile to your face whenever you get to pilot your time machine. If I get beat, oh well, hats off to that guy / girl for having a quicker car. None of us are made of money and it takes serious money to make serious power with our 30 year old Buick v6 platforms. Technology has long since surpassed us, Even though we are getting better with our ECM and fuel system tech, as well as turbo tech.

I'm sure I will be happy with my goal. I really enjoyed my grey car when I finally reached my goal of 10 flat and drive it anywhere. But it wasn't cheap then and it dang sure ain't cheap today. And I know I will be very lucky if I can reach my goals on this current engine at this weight. It won't live forever without better beefing of the internals. That will come in the future. To me, this is a hobby, not something to make money with. I think a lot of the younger generation that are just now getting into these cars, need to step back and realize just exactly what they are getting into if they think they are going to rule the world so to speak. Yeah, nah. We were always the under dog in the beginning and are still the under dogs, even more so today. I just want Legend to be able to live up to his reputation on the street. And that's gonna be tough, not impossible, just tough. So to all the new guys / girls out there just getting into these cars, don't give up. Keep doing your homework, asking questions and working your plan. Heck I've been doing this since "87 and still ask questions. There's always something new to learn with these cars.
Thanks again everyone.

-Patrick-

 

[Ernie GN]

Thanks for your feedback turbo89 and everyone else. I'm relieved to hear such good things about the 80's and follow exactly what you all are saying. I have decided to go with a flow matched set of 80's for sure. I will also be using a RJC ADPP on the stock ported plenum now, and when I upgrade to a 70mm Accufab t-body with a PTE plenum in the future. Back in the day, I saw first hand the testing results of those plates with both style upper plenums, on both a stock untouched intake and a fully ported stock intake. It sold me then and I'm still sold on them today. This combo won't ever get out of control like I've seen in the past with not only my own stuff, but my friends cars. It's a never ending expensive, fun / morale killer with these cars when you start chasing a number, wanting to be top dog in a class, or trying to be the king of the street. One thing I've learned over the years, is there will always be someone faster, someone quicker, a car that makes more power, a car that dominates a class, etc, etc. To me, these cars are meant to be fun, something that should always bring a smile to your face whenever you get to pilot your time machine. If I get beat, oh well, hats off to that guy / girl for having a quicker car. None of us are made of money and it takes serious money to make serious power with our 30 year old Buick v6 platforms. Technology has long since surpassed us, Even though we are getting better with our ECM and fuel system tech, as well as turbo tech.

I'm sure I will be happy with my goal. I really enjoyed my grey car when I finally reached my goal of 10 flat and drive it anywhere. But it wasn't cheap then and it dang sure ain't cheap today. And I know I will be very lucky if I can reach my goals on this current engine at this weight. It won't live forever without better beefing of the internals. That will come in the future. To me, this is a hobby, not something to make money with. I think a lot of the younger generation that are just now getting into these cars, need to step back and realize just exactly what they are getting into if they think they are going to rule the world so to speak. Yeah, nah. We were always the under dog in the beginning and are still the under dogs, even more so today. I just want Legend to be able to live up to his reputation on the street. And that's gonna be tough, not impossible, just tough. So to all the new guys / girls out there just getting into these cars, don't give up. Keep doing your homework, asking questions and working your plan. Heck I've been doing this since "87 and still ask questions. There's always something new to learn with these cars.
Thanks again everyone.

-Patrick-

Both you and me learn something new with your post.hope you didn’t mind me cutting in.
By the way
Thank you for the down pipe!

 

[TurboTnZ06]

I've run 60's on both cars, one was stock 13 sec GN and one was easy 10 sec built car, used both with a JayC chip and a TT 5.7 chip and 6.1 chips. On the street the 80's are fine. I run a Weldon 1100 with -8/-6, TT chips 5.7 and 6.1. I will be selling my 6.1 chips here soon, I think I have a 60# 5.7 chip around here somewhere, for 100 octane and one for 80 alky in the 10's. In fact, right now I ran the 6.1 chip on the stock airbox and maf, sold the translator and powerlogger to go holley.