Send me to school, what would you do?

[TurboDave]

OK, put yourself in my place, and please lend me your best advice.

Suppose you had this Aluminum Indy block, and wanted to start planning a buildup. Nothing super exotic, and price is definately a consideration!! Something that can make 550-600HP (must be sedate enough to do daily driver chores). I'd like to be able to drive it anywhere.
I can provide any technical data and measurements you would need to make educated decisions on which block would be least expensive to buildup upon request.

Some used parts are accepatable, like heads and such.

Where do I start on planning the bottom end? I know little about different stroke, rod length, piston combo's which is why I need some planning help. the bottom end is where my expertise is limited.
I.E. how is rod length actually measured, center to center of the journals??. How do you match a rod/piston combo to a stroke?
What part should be looked at first? Stroke? then buy rods and pistons to fit the block??
What stroke crank should I be thinking about? 340? 359? 362?
And with those strokes in mind which rods go with which?
With a given stroke and rod length, what piston size (height) should be looked at, and while talking about pistons, how is piston height measured???
All this assumes a tall deck block (which these are)

An example of why I'm confused. In looking at the picture on page 150 of the Power Source, and plugging in rough measurements using the stock crank, rods, and pistons here on my bench I come up with the following: piston height: 1.35
rod length: 4.35
1/2 rod bore: 1.125
1/2 crank stroke: 1.700

All this totals about 8.525
With a deck of 9.56 or so, where's the extra 1.3" gone to?
I'm obviosly missing something.

I'm still thinking of going with stage 2 heads simply for budgetary reasons (they're reasonably easy to find and pretty inexpensive).

The budget busters will likely be the crank, fairly descent roller cam, and an inexpensive on center intake setup for injectors.

You guys have been doing this for a long time and have the planning, sizing expertise I need to draw on.

The blocks (which most of you know, can be viewed in my photo album) are the same except as follows:

One (Indy1) is all aluminum with nicosil cylinders. This one is finished bored/honed to 4.020 (I measured the cylinders and they're all within .001 in any dimesion and any cylinder).
Needs align bore/hone of the mains/cam bores.
FYI, my stock crank sits and spins freely in this block.

The other (Indy2) is the same block but with steal sleeves. The bores are unfinished and sitting at 3.759. I doubt it could be bored too much over 3.8. Maybe 3.830-3.860. I don't think the sleeves are thick enough to to 4.0 or bigger. For some reason the bottoms of the sleeves (hanging down into the block) don't seem to be any where near as thick at the tops?????
This block has a perfect align hone done to the mains and cam bores!
FYI, my stock crank will also fit this block, BUT, the rear most weight hits bottom of the sleeve in the #5 hole.

Based on the above, the Indy2 is going to require the most machine work (boring, honing, sleeve trimming, etc.)

I kinda like Indy1 a little better only because it obviously has the best cubic inch capacity (already a 4 inch bore, and more room for the crank).

Neither block even has provisions for a dip stick! that will take some creative and careful machining.
Then there's getting oil into the engine via a stock type front cover/pump. Can't do it the way you guys do. Cant machine the hole into the front of the block face like you guys can.

Based on all that minutia, what da think?

Jeeze, maybe I should sell one or both and go with an iron stage 2

Probably forgot something. but this is a good start on the planning stages.

 

[KendallF]

Originally posted by TurboDave
OK, put yourself in my place, and please lend me your best advice.

I'm at work so I will spend some quality time here trying to go down your list and give some thoughts.

Where do I start on planning the bottom end? I know little about different stroke, rod length, piston combo's which is why I need some planning help. the bottom end is where my expertise is limited.
I.E. how is rod length actually measured, center to center of the journals??. How do you match a rod/piston combo to a stroke?
What part should be looked at first? Stroke? then buy rods and pistons to fit the block??
What stroke crank should I be thinking about? 340? 359? 362?
And with those strokes in mind which rods go with which?
With a given stroke and rod length, what piston size (height) should be looked at, and while talking about pistons, how is piston height measured???

If I were you, I'd start with the crank. Essentially, you want as long a stroke as you can find. The bigger the motor, the easier it'll be to make your HP goals with lower RPM and less boost. Next, buy rods. The only real limiter here is that if you have a 3.625" stroke crank and you buy rods 6.5" or longer, the pin height gets short enough to make it a problem fitting a dish in the piston for a low compression ratio, keeping the top of the piston thick enough, and having room for a good ring location. If your head chambers measure at least 45 ccs, it's do-able. Once you have a crank and rods, get the deck height measured accurately (so you can calculate pin height) and you can order pistons.

All this assumes a tall deck block (which these are)

An example of why I'm confused. In looking at the picture on page 150 of the Power Source, and plugging in rough measurements using the stock crank, rods, and pistons here on my bench I come up with the following: piston height: 1.35
rod length: 4.35
1/2 rod bore: 1.125
1/2 crank stroke: 1.700

All this totals about 8.525
With a deck of 9.56 or so, where's the extra 1.3" gone to?
I'm obviosly missing something.

Well, the piston pin height is measured to the center of the pin bore, and a stock piston should be more like 1.860". Then the rod length is center of pin bore to center of big end bore (you forgot 1/2" the pin bore measurement). Stock rods are 5.95" long. So, if you add the rod length + 1/2 the crank stroke + piston pin height, you get 9.510", or about .025" in the hole on a 86-87 block with a 9.535" nominal deck height.

One (Indy1) is all aluminum with nicosil cylinders. This one is finished bored/honed to 4.020 (I measured the cylinders and they're all within .001 in any dimesion and any cylinder).
Needs align bore/hone of the mains/cam bores.
FYI, my stock crank sits and spins freely in this block.

The other (Indy2) is the same block but with steal sleeves. The bores are unfinished and sitting at 3.759. I doubt it could be bored too much over 3.8. Maybe 3.830-3.860. I don't think the sleeves are thick enough to to 4.0 or bigger. For some reason the bottoms of the sleeves (hanging down into the block) don't seem to be any where near as thick at the tops?????
This block has a perfect align hone done to the mains and cam bores!
FYI, my stock crank will also fit this block, BUT, the rear most weight hits bottom of the sleeve in the #5 hole.

Based on the above, the Indy2 is going to require the most machine work (boring, honing, sleeve trimming, etc.)

I kinda like Indy1 a little better only because it obviously has the best cubic inch capacity (already a 4 inch bore, and more room for the crank).

The ONLY reason I'd go with the nikasil lined block would be if you just can't live without the extra cubic inches (about 252" vs. 274" for a 3.625" stroke crank). Either block will probably have to be notched quite a bit at the bottoms of the bores for the rods with a stroker crank..this is normal.

Neither block even has provisions for a dip stick! that will take some creative and careful machining.
Then there's getting oil into the engine via a stock type front cover/pump. Can't do it the way you guys do. Cant machine the hole into the front of the block face like you guys can.

Based on all that minutia, what da think?

Jeeze, maybe I should sell one or both and go with an iron stage 2

Probably forgot something. but this is a good start on the planning stages.

You can run the same Duttweiler pump setup as the on-center stage blocks; the pickup is in the pan, oil is routed via an external braided line to a billet block that bolts on where the stock pump cover bolts on and houses the pump gears. Any shop should be able to cut the block for a dipstick; it just needs a hole drilled. For a turbo drain return, you can just drill the front valley face or it can go back to the pan, either one.

Ah, just send 'em both to me..I'll do 'em both and send you back whichever one I don't want.

 

[Mac in SD]

Dave, the Oracle at Orange Park speaks the truth. But don't get too wrapped up in the small stuff.

Dipstick, for example: you can have a small tube brazed into the side of the oil pan at similar angle to the hole in the block. Use the same diameter tube as your stock dipstick tube, and use a compression fitting to attach the stock tube to the one on the pan.

Oil-in to the block: from the GNTType block guide pix, it looks like there's a boss for your main oil gallery. Drill, tap, AN from Duttweiler pump setup. EZ.

Turbo drain: either to the pan or, like Kendall said, drill and tap similar to a stocker. Oil pump bypass: drill and tap the mechanical fuel pump blockoff plate, or run it to the pan.

Re: crank stroke - rod length. Yes, it gets tight with a 6.5 rod and a stroker. I'd guess you're really complicating piston configuration with a 6.5 rod and anything over 3.590 stroke.

...and it's just starting!

 

[TurboDave]

Thanks guys!!! And hopefully there'll be more "advice" forthcoming.

I see your point on measurements Kendall. What confused me was the picture in on the bottom left side of page 150. It shows measuring piston height from the top of the piston to the bottom of the pin hole, and it show measuring rod length from the bottom of the pin hole to the top of the journal hole, all very odd indeed. It shows to take (piston height + rod length + 1/2 rod bore + 1/2 crank stroke) for matching everything up.

Then below that picture it shows a block and says:

Deck Height =
1/2 Main Bore =
Total =

But it doesn't say how to handle those numbers... Add the two for a total of about 10.810 on a 9.56 block,
or subtract them for a total of 8.310 on the same block
(assuming a crank with 2.500" Mains
Wonder what that's all about.



I thought about having someone machine a groove in the side of the block like the regular one's have for the dipstick hole to be drilled, but with my luck they'd cut through the sidewall
Brazing something onto the pan may be an option also, as was mentioned.

Kendall, If I know you as I think I do, I know you'd love to build one of these if for no other reason than just the sheer challenge!!

My problem is going to be getting the parts I need. I'm going to have to use good high quality USED parts almost everywhere, for strictly budgetary reasons. No way around that.
And on center intakes; oh my

As for getting oil pumped, I understand about pulling it out of the side of the pan through a line to the pump. It's getting it into the block that poses the largest hurdle I think. Getting the oil back out of the pump, into a braided line is the only way it can be done, and then fed to the boss up on top/front of the block.
Going to be lots of "T"s every where going to have to have one for the turbo supply, and at least one more for a pressure gauge.

Finding anyone around here with 100 miles to do machining is going to be virtually impossible too.

Hmmmmm

 

[Chuck Leeper]

Daily driver???

If this is actually a DD, then the problem w/ oil consumption comes into play. Alum blocks are well known for hi oil consumption. [FYI, Indy Cyl Head won't recommend the alum block for street use, due to hi oil use]
I'd also ask around about the nicasil cyl walls and the need for frequent re-ringing...
Also, yrs ago, when Chevy had the all alum ZL1 engines, we changed them out B4 they were sold to the general public for that exact reason. [I'm old, but the mind isn't totally gone yet!! ]

IMO, your idea of sending them down the road and getting a cast iron stage, is worth considering....
If you need a 100# off the ft end, buy some glas parts, etc....
My $.02 worth

 

[turbodave231]

Dave,

BRC Pistons has a nice calculator on their website if you want to play with stroke, rod length, find compression height.

http://www.brcpistons.com/calculations2001.html

A couple things I learned:

Buy your crank and rods first. Look for wide journal 6.5 rods. They are by far the most common rods out there. You can use them with any stroke up to 3.625. Most will have a .927" dia pin which is the same as a SBC. Most 3.590 and 3.625 cranks will be wide journal. If you decide to spent the big bucks and go billet or can find a forging, do a wide journal crank. You get more rod bearing surface area with the wide journal rod.

Have your block measured for deck squareness and height before you order pistons. Make sure they have and use a BHJ squaring fixture. If they don't have one, go somewhere else. Kendall will probably back me up on this.

I made a stupid assumption that my block was square. I ended up having take .025 of the deck. The pistons that were going to be .015 in the hole ended up .010 proud. I had Diamond pistons take .010 off the pistons. (BTW they are great people and didn't charge me)

Order your pistons last. You will be getting custom pistons anyway. If you order .928 pins you will be able to pin fit the rods to exactly the clearance you want without rebushing the rod small ends.

Dave

 

[TurboDave]

Re: Daily driver???

Originally posted by Chuck Leeper
If this is actually a DD, then the problem w/ oil consumption comes into play. Alum blocks are well known for hi oil consumption. [FYI, Indy Cyl Head won't recommend the alum block for street use, due to hi oil use]
I'd also ask around about the nicasil cyl walls and the need for frequent re-ringing...
Also, yrs ago, when Chevy had the all alum ZL1 engines, we changed them out B4 they were sold to the general public for that exact reason. [I'm old, but the mind isn't totally gone yet!! ]

IMO, your idea of sending them down the road and getting a cast iron stage, is worth considering....
If you need a 100# off the ft end, buy some glas parts, etc....
My $.02 worth

Weight off the front wasn't a consideration.

I'm really not all that convinced that aluminum cylinders are as bad as the rap they've gotten over the years. You sound like an old chevy guy, so let me throw this into the mix.... Remember the 1975 Vega, and it's "new" durabilt engine block treatment (also aluminum blocks)??? I had a few, and it was a VERY similar process to nicasil. The engines I had were all tore down at nothing less than 150,000 each. And each and every one of them showed virtually NO cylinder wall wear (could still see the crosshatch in each). The rings were still perfect. You'd have sworn you had just opened up a 10,000 mile motor.
Unfortunately, buy that time Vega's fate was already sealed by the misfortunes of the years that preceeded the 75 model year.

Stupid question... Your first sentance says "If this is actually a DD", ..... What's a DD??

 

[86brick]

Re: Re: Daily driver???

Originally posted by TurboDave
[B What's a DD?? [/B]

I think the old fart means daily driver.......

Duh!!!

You smart guys sure can be stupid at times

 

[1320n10]

Dave. wegner automotive research in Markesan Wi. has built as many stage motors as aneyone. I dont know if they would do any thing for you or not. They build winston cup motors so they may be out of your budget. There is a customer of wegner that runs a stage II n/a regal that does machine work out of there shop. If you would like his name send me a e-mail and i will get it for you.

 

[TurboDave]

Thanks Walt, sent you an email.

 

[TurboDave]

Re: Re: Send me to school, what would you do?

Originally posted by KendallF


Well, the piston pin height is measured to the center of the pin bore, and a stock piston should be more like 1.860". Then the rod length is center of pin bore to center of big end bore (you forgot 1/2" the pin bore measurement). Stock rods are 5.95" long. So, if you add the rod length + 1/2 the crank stroke + piston pin height, you get 9.510", or about .025" in the hole on a 86-87 block with a 9.535" nominal deck height.

[/b]


You can run the same Duttweiler pump setup as the on-center stage blocks; the pickup is in the pan, oil is routed via an external braided line to a billet block that bolts on where the stock pump cover bolts on and houses the pump gears. Any shop should be able to cut the block for a dipstick; it just needs a hole drilled. For a turbo drain return, you can just drill the front valley face or it can go back to the pan, either one.

Ah, just send 'em both to me..I'll do 'em both and send you back whichever one I don't want.

So, let me see if I understand this...

Suppose I had access to a 3.590 crank, and wanted 6.5 rods
1/2 the stroke plus the 6.5 rod = 8.295
And further suppose I measured the deck height at 9.56 (still waiting for the tool to do this).
My math says that only leaves room for a 1.240 piston, assuming I leave it down in the hole .025.
Are these assumptions correct?

Sounds like I'm either going to have to settle for a shorter stroke or shorter rod??

The source I'm looking at has a lot of real good used cranks. The most interesting of which is a 3.50 LA Billet for $400
They even have some 3.07's, and get this, even a 2.66 talk about small cubes (that's only 3 litres with a 4" bore)
They also have a new set of dished pistons of 3.795 but they're 1.715 high.
And a nice set of C&A new nascar rods that are 6.48 for $550
But that set of rods and the 350 crank still don't leave enough room for those pistons.

If I wanted those 1.7 pistons I'd have to find a real short set of rods, even with the 3.50 crank. Something in the area of a 6.1" rod??

Sorry for the rambling.

 

[Mac in SD]

Dave, there's no way you really want the piston .025 down into the hole. What you need is about .045 piston-to-head clearance, which, with the .039 compressed FElPro's, is about .006. Mine are at .007.

You know, the Busch and ASA guys actuall set the pistons up to "kiss" the head! No kidding. I've got some used flat-tops and you can see the milling marks from the head very faintly in the piston.

Zero deck is where it's at, Bro.

 

[KendallF]

Re: Re: Re: Send me to school, what would you do?

Originally posted by TurboDave
So, let me see if I understand this...

Suppose I had access to a 3.590 crank, and wanted 6.5 rods
1/2 the stroke plus the 6.5 rod = 8.295
And further suppose I measured the deck height at 9.56 (still waiting for the tool to do this).
My math says that only leaves room for a 1.240 piston, assuming I leave it down in the hole .025.
Are these assumptions correct?

Sounds like I'm either going to have to settle for a shorter stroke or shorter rod??

1.240" is plenty workable. My pistons have a pin height of something like 1.07"! As The Hen Pecked Man in San Diego said, you should shoot for pretty durn near zero deck though.

The source I'm looking at has a lot of real good used cranks. The most interesting of which is a 3.50 LA Billet for $400
They even have some 3.07's, and get this, even a 2.66 talk about small cubes (that's only 3 litres with a 4" bore)
They also have a new set of dished pistons of 3.795 but they're 1.715 high.
And a nice set of C&A new nascar rods that are 6.48 for $550
But that set of rods and the 350 crank still don't leave enough room for those pistons.

If I wanted those 1.7 pistons I'd have to find a real short set of rods, even with the 3.50 crank. Something in the area of a 6.1" rod??

Sorry for the rambling.

So Muscle Motors still has that 3.50 crank? If that's the one they've advertised, it'll need a custom flywheel. Forget those pistons, that's not the big bucks part of the buildup and you will probably need to juggle the dish displacement and exact bore size depending on what your motor needs, anyway.

That crank and the C&A rods would be a great start; then you'll spend around $600 for pistons and you've got a lot of your rotating assembly licked.

 

[EightSecV6]

Muscle Motorsports.....
I have had that crank in my hands, A customer of mine owns it,if you want it I can get it to you for about $500, you will need to fabricate a hub (adapter) and add a Buick flywheel, didnt look like that big of a deal to me, the pilot hole in the end will need to be bored as well.
I bought those C&A rods, GREAT DEAL until I opened the box and counted about 5 times before I realized I really did know how to count to 5!!!!!! One was missing and they didnt have it???I sent them back and my money was refunded promptly.

Here is a twist on things..... I had a billet 3.07 crank from an Indy engine that magged good. We offset ground it and used a Chevy 2.100" Eagle rod (very cheap and decent quality) for a street engine, I cant remember the bore was but I think we ended up with about 240 cubic inches I'll check my notes.

Kendall, did you get my email regarding photos?

Bill

 

[S2V6RACER]

Bill, can you elaborate, in reality how much a cranks strength is compromised with a 2.100 rod journal? I have a Bryant Billet 3.50 stroke crank Std/Std and have heard negatives, but I really do not believe it is really that much weaker.

 

[KendallF]

Originally posted by EightSecV6


Kendall, did you get my email regarding photos?

Bill

I'll risk hijacking Dave's thread to reply... Bill, I sent you an email reply the same day. It was VERY large so your server may have bounced it. I'll re-send it broken down into chunks, OK?

 

[TurboDave]

Hijack all you need. I've learned a ton just in the last few replies.

Like, I didn't even think about the zero deck because I just simply forgot to factor in the head gasket... DOH!!!

I've been doing a lot of studying on this nicasil thing too. Tons of reading out there, and the more I learn, the better it sounds actually. It's very common in all types of race engines, and most prevalant in high $$$ motorcycle/snowmobile racing applications!
I don't think I want to toss it off, just because a couple of BMW engines had a problem (not all), and the fact that none of the Porche engines that use it suffered the same fate??? Kinda makes you wonder if maybe the process may have been flawed on those particular motors in question (2 sizes I think). Anyway enough of that.

That's the reason I want to use that block so badly, The cylinders are already bored/honed/finished, and they're sitting at exactly 4.020.

The sleeved block, as I'm seeing it, can only be bored to 3.8-3.860 0r so. Oddly enough the tops of the sleeves are pretty thick, but not the bottoms. The OD of the bottom of the sleeve hanging in the crankcase isn't even 4". I find that to be strange! The OD of the sleeves mus be "stepped" somewhere down in there.

 

[EightSecV6]

Ted,
You can stroke the crank .150 and it will take a .010 bearing. I really cant see it being too much of a problem for reliability, surely it will not be as strong as a crank with 2.25 journals but I dont think you would hurt it as a result of this.

Kendall,
Thanks for the pics!!!!!!!