Series II L67 Grand National??!!??

[GoldHawg]

Thanks Cody! As Cody mentioned above there were an aweful lot of hours involved which really isnt my concern, which is that everyone's car will be a different setup and arrangement of brackets/turbo/downpipe/IC, etc, and without having the car it will be near impossible to make something that will work for everyone. Same goes for the wiring harness, I cant make one without the car being present because again everyone will want something different and not everything is always in the same place so wiring is pretty much the last thing to get done for placement reasons.

I guess I don't understand this. While I suppose everyone could have a different configuration, most poster's to this idea want the whole enchilada, AC, cruise etc. Why not figure out the best wiring harness for a g-body, and make that? You set the std--everyone would have to follow that or go mod yours or complete custom. I've swapped several Chevy fuel injection engines in my 71 Cutlass, I bought the harness from howell. As I recall only option was for VSS w/6 speed vice automatic. Same thing w/accessory brackets and exhaust--you figure out what the best arrangement is, then people will either buy and duplicate your setup or not. As for me, if someone goes thru the trouble to figure it all out, and sells the complete kit, I'm not going to reinvent the wheel--I'll buy yours if the quality is right and price is reasonable. I've been thinking about a new LS3/6speed auto for my GN, but this has me thinking....

 

[GBGN1]

I agree.Headers and wireing harness could be made in a generic sense,just need something that fits,There isnt anything aftermarket that has been new and not altered or made better later.anyone talk to john spina at caspers about this?

 

[GoldHawg]

[/QUOTE]The 3800 Series 3 engine came out in 2004. The heads have slightly bigger valves than the Series 2 engines, but for the most part casting remains the same AFAIK. The Series 3 blocks I have seen still have "Series II" cast into them, so I don't really think there were any changes there. Most Series 3 engines came with powdered metal connecting rods; but I have taken apart an early production Series 3 engine that still had the cast rods just like what was used in the Series 2 engines. Can't tell you if the PM rods are better than the cast rods.[/QUOTE]

So is it better to start w/a lower mileage series 3 supercharged engine? You could still use the intake and pan from a series 2 F-body?

Thx!!

 

[Darth Fiero]

So is it better to start w/a lower mileage series 3 supercharged engine? You could still use the intake and pan from a series 2 F-body?

Thx!!

I would think for a high-performance build, you would probably want to start with a "seasoned" block. Personally, I would prefer to find something that had over 100,000 miles on it to start with. Since bearings and pistons will be getting replaced anyway, as long as the core engine parts you are reusing are in good shape; you shouldn't have any problems.

The intake and oil pan from the Series 2 F-body engine will bolt right up to the Series 3 engine. Just remember, the supercharged engines have the injector holes machined right into the heads; whereas on the n/a engines, the injector holes are located in the intake manifold. So you are going to end up with an extra set of injector holes that you will need to plug.

 

[turboc87gn]

y

 

[turboc87gn]

That sounds like too much work considering you could have run faster for less money using off the shelf parts.

You r a retard with parts drying up you should give these guys a pat on the back for finding a way to keep our cars buick and on top of that and have a new source for cheap plentiful engines and heads oh yeah by the way thanks for swiping my powermaster motor away from me i bid and watched that part for an entire week with no other bids and you come along and outbid me in the last minute and a half of the auction my car has sat in the garage for two summers cause i cant find a good powermaster motor that dosent leak i finally find one and you swipe it at the last second thanks.. ..now that i see your comment you have reinforced the fact that you are a true idiot ......

 

[kdogg87]

Good job guys!
I just added turboc87gn to my buddy list.
I hate when that happens.

 

[Beth]

Sweeet!!!

Wow, this is awesome! I love it! These cars are already so cool.

:biggrin:

 

[GoldHawg]

Wow, this is awesome! I love it! These cars are already so cool.

:biggrin:

Welcome aboard Beth.

ALL: I asked Beth to pay attn to this thread since she may be able to help us w/part of the package (and other issues). My other car is a 96 Impala SS, and Her boss Dan @ Clear Image Automotive (CIA) is the "man" for headers and exhaust.

Clear Image Automotive :: The Clear Choice For Performance!

You can check feedback for them on the Impala site here (I suspect its all good):
Feedback - Impala SS Forum


They have been serving the niche LT1 Impala/Caprice market very well for several years, and have their own mandrel bending machine, capable of up to four inch diameter in stainless (Beth correct me if I'm wrong here). So I asked them to start paying attn to this, since GN/TRs might be a good expansion market for them. If trannyman or someone else wants to design a kit for this engine combo, but doesn't want to hassle w/exhaust or wiring, perhaps someone takes the lead offering the kit but subcontracts the wiring and exhaust; CIA might be one player that has a demonstrated track record for serving a niche market for the exhaust.

BTW, I also asked them about duplicating THDPs, since these are NLA new.

Anyway, enough commercial for CIA; I just would like someone to step up and take this kit to the next level. Here is at least one potential source of help.

 

[Beth]

Thanks Gold Hawg

Welcome aboard Beth.

ALL: I asked Beth to pay attn to this thread since she may be able to help us w/part of the package (and other issues). My other car is a 96 Impala SS, and Her boss Dan @ Clear Image Automotive (CIA) is the "man" for headers and exhaust.

Clear Image Automotive :: The Clear Choice For Performance!

You can check feedback for them on the Impala site here (I suspect its all good):
Feedback - Impala SS Forum


They have been serving the niche LT1 Impala/Caprice market very well for several years, and have their own mandrel bending machine, capable of up to four inch diameter in stainless (Beth correct me if I'm wrong here). So I asked them to start paying attn to this, since GN/TRs might be a good expansion market for them. If trannyman or someone else wants to design a kit for this engine combo, but doesn't want to hassle w/exhaust or wiring, perhaps someone takes the lead offering the kit but subcontracts the wiring and exhaust; CIA might be one player that has a demonstrated track record for serving a niche market for the exhaust.

BTW, I also asked them about duplicating THDPs, since these are NLA new.

Anyway, enough commercial for CIA; I just would like someone to step up and take this kit to the next level. Here is at least one potential source of help.

Thanks GoldHawg! Actually we can only bend up to 3" tubing, but we do have 3 hydraulic mandrel benders and a great fabricator! Dan and I loooooveee these GNs and would looooooveeeee to be a part of this community!:biggrin:

 

[GoldHawg]

I have a few simple questions, but hoping someone can clarify. The obvious question is why don't stock type exhaust, accessories and mounting brackets work? Not having either engine to look at right now, wondered if anyone knows. I'm sure its not exact, but could stock stuff be made to work? For instance, if we fabbed some adapter plates could we still use stock frame and motor mounts? Why can't you use a 200R4? Is the engine length different or can (especially w/adapter plates) we have the tranny be in the exact same spot (and keep the 200R4/stock driveshaft length)? If the accessories have different bolt set up, can the block/heads be tapped to duplicate the existing setup and use stock accessories? What would it take to use the accessories from the gen II block? Could a simple frame notch work or is major surgery required to do that? Why don't the exhaust headers fit? Are the port distances different or is there some sort of interference issue w/stock header design? Just trying to understand what MUST be changed to do this swap vice what this particular swap DID change for his own particular purposes. Doesn't seem like it should be quite as much as he did...

 

[Darth Fiero]

I have a few simple questions, but hoping someone can clarify. The obvious question is why don't stock type exhaust, accessories and mounting brackets work? Not having either engine to look at right now, wondered if anyone knows. I'm sure its not exact, but could stock stuff be made to work? For instance, if we fabbed some adapter plates could we still use stock frame and motor mounts? Why can't you use a 200R4? Is the engine length different or can (especially w/adapter plates) we have the tranny be in the exact same spot (and keep the 200R4/stock driveshaft length)? If the accessories have different bolt set up, can the block/heads be tapped to duplicate the existing setup and use stock accessories? What would it take to use the accessories from the gen II block? Could a simple frame notch work or is major surgery required to do that? Why don't the exhaust headers fit? Are the port distances different or is there some sort of interference issue w/stock header design? Just trying to understand what MUST be changed to do this swap vice what this particular swap DID change for his own particular purposes. Doesn't seem like it should be quite as much as he did...

I'll be glad to answer this. First, the transmission: The Buick 3.8L V6 that comes stock in the GN's has the old BOP bolt pattern for the bellhousing. The 3800 Series 1, 3800 Series 2, and 3800 Series 3 blocks ALL have the standard FWD bellhousing bolt pattern (like what first appeared on the 2.5L 4cyl and 2.8 V6 engines). Even the bolts that hold the tranny to the engine are different (older 3.8 = 3/8-16; newer 3800's = 12mm x 1.75).

Exhaust/Intake: The cylinder heads used on the 3800 Series 2 (and 3) engines have a different intake/exhaust valve arrangement than earlier 3800 and 3.8L engines. (3800 Series 2 & 3 = EIEIEI valve arrangement). So obviously the earlier 3800 and 3.8L intake and exhaust manifolds will not work because of the port spacing differences.

Intake/Assy's: The 3800 Series 2 and 3 engines have a 1" shorter deck height (heads closer to crank centerline) vs. earlier engines. This means the engine is shorter and narrower than earlier engines. This makes that intake manifold narrower than what is used on earlier engines. And even if the bolt holes in the front of the heads/block were the correct pattern to bolt on the older assy mounting brackets, nothing would line up correctly in relation to crank centerline because the engine is physically smaller.

Assy/Mount bolt holes: The block has bosses cast into specific locations (most raised) where they are drilled and tapped for assy/mount bolting locations. In most areas where you would need to drill/tap for mounting earlier mounts and assy's, the casting is not thick enough to accomidate this. In most cases I think you would find you would be drilling right into a cooling jacket if you tried this.

Hope this answers your questions.

-ryan

 

[GoldHawg]

Thanks Ryan--appreciate your educating me (for sure) and the rest of the crowd (likely some).

Understand we may be a while away from a kit, but my GN is in the barn in AR, and I won't start swapping out engine stuff for at least a year. Also, I have a nice pick and pull yard here in Albuquerque, so I can get stuff relatively cheap. So here is the list of what I think I should start procuring in the yard, based on all the posts above. intent is to begin getting the engine and tranny ready, hoping for wiring, accessory brackets and exhaust to all come together in a kit later. Some of the parts listed in the earlier posts were for a specific year, but I suspect thats just the year he found and there are probably a range of years possible. Plz advise if this is the right list to get from the yard, and my interpretation of the above posts is correct.

Engine Block: Appears any series II/III from 1995-up will work, but the 96-03 L67 will have the strongest internals, and will be a higher mileage block which is a good basis to start from. L-32 supercharged Series III will also work.

Heads: Series II or III NA (L26 or L36) will both work, with L36 having the higher flow rates. Neither require plugging injector holes. However, Supercharged L32 Series III are the best flowing, but require plugging injector holes.

Intake/Plenum/throttlebody/PCM/Wiring Harness/oil pan: Get 96-98 F-body units. Not sure if only 98 PCMs work, but that's recommended above.

Mounts: Get Mid-80s V-8 Cutlass frame & motor mounts. Posts also suggest a Cutlass Crossmember, and early to mid 80s 700R4 tailhousing to add to 4L60E for mounting.

Tranny: 4L60E built. Posts aren't clear to me, but believe you must get an F-body trans from behind a 3800, and get it built to withstand the power levels expected.

IF the above is correct, seems like the easiest approach would be to get a complete engine/tranny combo from a 98 Camaro. Posts above suggest new pistons, the question is whether you need the crank/rods from the supercharged.

At my pick a part, the prices are 1) complete engine w/accessories $260 2) Engine block, $95 3) engine w/heads/intake $175, 4) Heads $80 5) Intake upper/lower $50 6) Tranny $120 7) Throttle Body $25, 8) wiring harness $28 9)Oil Pan $20.

If I want to put an engine together at the yard, I could mix and match and get complete engine/tranny/accessories/wiring harness for a little over $400. If I buy the complete F-body setup, and get the L67 block for the internals, its another $95. Tranny Crossmbr ($13) Tailhousing ($15) an frame mounts ($8) get us ~$530 for all the parts. If I don't need the F-body accessories, can shave off $85 bucks....

So what do you think? Is this the right way to get all the parts? What would any of you do differently?

I'm assuming stock turbo/IC all stay the same...

Thx for any clarifications/corrections/inputs you may have.

 

[Adam Connell]

Would any of the computers be capable of controlling a 4l80E? IMO there really isnt a reason to waist your time with the 4l60 if a 4l80 is a possibility...

 

[Darth Fiero]

Thanks Ryan--appreciate your educating me (for sure) and the rest of the crowd (likely some).

Understand we may be a while away from a kit, but my GN is in the barn in AR, and I won't start swapping out engine stuff for at least a year. Also, I have a nice pick and pull yard here in Albuquerque, so I can get stuff relatively cheap. So here is the list of what I think I should start procuring in the yard, based on all the posts above. intent is to begin getting the engine and tranny ready, hoping for wiring, accessory brackets and exhaust to all come together in a kit later. Some of the parts listed in the earlier posts were for a specific year, but I suspect thats just the year he found and there are probably a range of years possible. Plz advise if this is the right list to get from the yard, and my interpretation of the above posts is correct.

Engine Block: Appears any series II/III from 1995-up will work, but the 96-03 L67 will have the strongest internals, and will be a higher mileage block which is a good basis to start from. L-32 supercharged Series III will also work.

The 3800 Series 2 engine was introduced in 1995 in N/A form (L36) ONLY. 1996 was the first year the 3800 Series 2 Supercharged (L67) engine was available. The 3800 Series 3 n/a (L26) and SC (L32) was rolled out in 2004. The 3800 Series 2 engines were still used by GM thru the 2005 model year.

Heads: Series II or III NA (L26 or L36) will both work, with L36 having the higher flow rates. Neither require plugging injector holes. However, Supercharged L32 Series III are the best flowing, but require plugging injector holes.

The castings for these heads are basically identical. So if you are going to port the heads and do valve work, it really doesn't matter what year or engine they came off of, IMHO. If you want to use the bigger valves out of the Series 3 heads in a set of Series 2's, I'm sure all that is required is some seat work. But if you are going to go to the trouble of doing this, why not put even bigger valves in them??? I believe Dave at TripleEdgePerformance has experience with this (LS1 valves???).

Intake/Plenum/throttlebody/PCM/Wiring Harness/oil pan: Get 96-98 F-body units. Not sure if only 98 PCMs work, but that's recommended above.

The 3800 Series 2 (L36) n/a engine was available in the 1995 - 2002 Camaro/Firebird. There is NO tuning software available for 1995 PCMs, period. There is very limited support available for 1996 PCMs but 1997-2002 seem to be the most widely supported. 1998 PCMs are "better" than earlier computers because of their availablility and hardware configuration. Starting in 1999 model year, ALL F-body 3800s came with FLY-BY-WIRE throttle control (has different intake and throttle body vs. earlier engines). I recommend steering clear of this setup for these swaps. I do not know if the 99-up upper intake plenum can accept a cable-op throttle body without adapter plate -- never looked at one that closely.

Mounts: Get Mid-80s V-8 Cutlass frame & motor mounts. Posts also suggest a Cutlass Crossmember, and early to mid 80s 700R4 tailhousing to add to 4L60E for mounting.

Tranny: 4L60E built. Posts aren't clear to me, but believe you must get an F-body trans from behind a 3800, and get it built to withstand the power levels expected.

I would verify this with Dave at TEP.

IF the above is correct, seems like the easiest approach would be to get a complete engine/tranny combo from a 98 Camaro. Posts above suggest new pistons, the question is whether you need the crank/rods from the supercharged.

From what my research has turned up, I have been able to determine the following based on the information I have been able to find...

-All 3800 Series 2 and 3 blocks are the SAME.
-All 3800 Series 2 and 3 heads are the same casting; just some minor differences concerning machining for n/a vs. SC apps; and Series 3 vs. Series 2 (mainly valve size as far as I can tell)
-All 3800 Series 2 and 3 cranks are the same. But there might be differences that come in to play in counter balance weight amounts being different between SC and N/A versions to count for the difference in mass of SC vs. N/A rods, pins, pistons, etc.
-These engines are balanced externally meaning the harmonic balancer and flywheel have counter balance weights in them. THESE ARE DIFFERENT between N/A and SC engines. The counter balance shaft used in the block above the camshafts are also different between SC and N/A engines.
-As mentioned above, connecting rods, pistons, and pins are different between N/A and SC versions of these engines. The SC versions are much beefier (have verified this myself with side-to-side comparisons).
-Oil pumps are run directly off the crank and are mounted in the front cover. All are the same Series 2 and 3, n/a and SC. Oil filter mounting housings are removable and there are several different ones available depending on the year/make/model of car the engine was used in. Many are still available new from GM.

At my pick a part, the prices are 1) complete engine w/accessories $260 2) Engine block, $95 3) engine w/heads/intake $175, 4) Heads $80 5) Intake upper/lower $50 6) Tranny $120 7) Throttle Body $25, 8) wiring harness $28 9)Oil Pan $20.

If I want to put an engine together at the yard, I could mix and match and get complete engine/tranny/accessories/wiring harness for a little over $400. If I buy the complete F-body setup, and get the L67 block for the internals, its another $95. Tranny Crossmbr ($13) Tailhousing ($15) an frame mounts ($8) get us ~$530 for all the parts. If I don't need the F-body accessories, can shave off $85 bucks....

So what do you think? Is this the right way to get all the parts? What would any of you do differently?

I'm assuming stock turbo/IC all stay the same...

Thx for any clarifications/corrections/inputs you may have.

If this were a swap I was doing, I would first obtain a SC shortblock (L67 or L32). I would then obtain N/A (L36 or L26) heads. The F-body cars were available with cast aluminum valve covers. All other cars came with composite (combination of plastic/fiberglass) valve covers. If you get a set of SC heads, you will be forced to work with factory composite valve covers because the sealing surface that would allow you to run the n/a valve covers has been partially machined away for the injector holes. There are aftermarket machined aluminum valve covers available for the SC heads, but they are pricey.

Next I would obtain an intake and throttle body from a 1995-98 F-body. You can use an Assy drive (alt, A/C, p/s pump) from any F-body -- if that is what you want to work with. The only problem with this setup is it wants you to put the A/C compressor low on the engine where it will interfere with the crossmember. I have an idea of mounting the factory GN pancake style A/C compressor on the odd (left) cylinder head and running it off the front belt pulley grooves on the SC balancer (all other assy's use the inboard belt pulley grooves).

I would probably make my own wiring harness, but would try to start with one from a 1998 F-body Auto car. I would use a 1998 PCM and a built 4L60-E trans. Would also custom build headers and crossover pipe similar to what Dave at TEP did in his GN swap. Obviously mine would have to be different to accommodate for the A/C compressor / lines.

But that's just what I would do.

-ryan

 

[95' regal gs]

This is a really cool idea. One thing I would add is that if you are planning to put any sort of power into this engine I would add forged pistons and series III forged connecting rods. Those factory hyperutectic pistons and cast rods do not tolerate any knock. I just noticed that people were saying to get the supercharged rotating assembly, but the only real difference is lower compression pistons, not really any stronger. By the way, if anyone reading this thread wants to learn more about the series II/III motors, check out 3800Pro.com Forum

 

[Darth Fiero]

This is a really cool idea. One thing I would add is that if you are planning to put any sort of power into this engine I would add forged pistons and series III forged connecting rods. Those factory hyperutectic pistons and cast rods do not tolerate any knock. I just noticed that people were saying to get the supercharged rotating assembly, but the only real difference is lower compression pistons, not really any stronger. By the way, if anyone reading this thread wants to learn more about the series II/III motors, check out 3800Pro.com Forum

I agree 150% on the forged pistons. But concerning the connecting rods, yes the Series 2 SC stockers are cast. But also aren't the stock ones in the GN motors? They seem to be able to hold up with a great deal of power.

Now I have heard the 3800 Series 3 SC connecting rods are powdered metal, NOT forged. I don't know how strong they are either. I do know some Grand Prix vendors were able to make 600+ HP on the stock Series 2 SC connecting rods.

 

[95' regal gs]

Yes they are made from powdered metal, but they are forged from powdered metal rather than machined from billets. They are stronger than cast rods because of the intense pressure they are forged under. They are more uniform in their molecular structure. They are also stronger than many forged rods (factory aplications of course). Tim King's 8 sec 3800 firebird has series III connecting rods.

 

[bsdlinux]

I agree 150% on the forged pistons. But concerning the connecting rods, yes the Series 2 SC stockers are cast. But also aren't the stock ones in the GN motors? They seem to be able to hold up with a great deal of power.

The 109 Vin 7 motors do have cast pistons in them but by no means are stock in regards to 109 n/a pistons.

 

[Turbo V6 Camaro]

Thanks Ryan--appreciate your educating me (for sure) and the rest of the crowd (likely some).

Engine Block: Appears any series II/III from 1995-up will work, but the 96-03 L67 will have the strongest internals, and will be a higher mileage block which is a good basis to start from. L-32 supercharged Series III will also work.

the L67 are 8.5 CR and are a littler strong form the factory

Heads: Series II or III NA (L26 or L36) will both work, with L36 having the higher flow rates. Neither require plugging injector holes. However, Supercharged L32 Series III are the best flowing, but require plugging injector holes.

make sure to get 98+ heads (younger year crack easy). and they flow about the same not really any difference other then the injector hole

Intake/Plenum/throttlebody/PCM/Wiring Harness/oil pan: Get 96-98 F-body units. Not sure if only 98 PCMs work, but that's recommended above.

shure be able to use any intake from 1995-1999 and computers from 1997-1999 (that way you can tune with HP tuners)

basically if they have the drive by wire you can't use it UNLESS you get the hole Assembly and swap out your gas pendle. the drive by wire started in 1999

Mounts: Get Mid-80s V-8 Cutlass frame & motor mounts. Posts also suggest a Cutlass Crossmember, and early to mid 80s 700R4 tailhousing to add to 4L60E for mounting.

I use a rossler built 4L60E and Rossler even has a trans break for these trannys...... they will hold up if the right person builds it

Tranny: 4L60E built. Posts aren't clear to me, but believe you must get an F-body trans from behind a 3800, and get it built to withstand the power levels expected.

see above there are only 2 place i'd trust with my 4l60e

IF the above is correct, seems like the easiest approach would be to get a complete engine/tranny combo from a 98 Camaro. Posts above suggest new pistons, the question is whether you need the crank/rods from the supercharged.

the tranny bell housing chaged some time after 98, but i have a 2000 FWD block in my 1997 car with 1999 tranny and no issues :biggrin:

if your going to get rods get the SIII rods they are best and are only about $250 for all 6 lol :biggrin:

At my pick a part, the prices are 1) complete engine w/accessories $260 2) Engine block, $95 3) engine w/heads/intake $175, 4) Heads $80 5) Intake upper/lower $50 6) Tranny $120 7) Throttle Body $25, 8) wiring harness $28 9)Oil Pan $20.

have you looked at tacreationsusa.com ? ED morad also sells blocks and full motors

I have a set of SII con rods here if anyone want them $50 + shipping