Series II L67 Grand National??!!??

[Trannyman95]

Sorry I havent been around much guys, i have been buried with work and having a new baby really adds to my lack of time and sleep! I know guys would like to have functional AC on most cars so that likely means a completely different exhaust layout than I made for Codys car though it may be doable. My 86 Cutlass has a supercharged L67 in it with Fbody accessories on it but where the AC compressor is located requires lots of frame modifications and is not a drop-in accessory for a Gbody and also all of the AC lines are in the way of where the downpipe needs to go. I keep pretty busy with transmission work so swap stuff is normally back burner stuff that I dont have much time for but I would love to be able to help you guys out. I know there is concern with making the wiring harnesses and exhaust to make this all happen and being that I do custom swaps for a number of different vehicles I also know that every car is different and it is really difficult to make a "One size fits all" kind of harness. It is not even close to plug and play and requires at least 20 extra wires that must connect to the wirewall connector and go through the firewall for misc stuff that needs hooked up inside the car and these are not just plug in wires, there is lots of tracing, splicing, and replacing the old stuff that has to be done. Also you are faced with the speedo problem, do you spend $400+ on an adapter to use the old cable driven speedo OR do you go digital or aftermarket for a speedo? Then on the 87s you have the whole PM brake setup that is electronic and since Codys car does not have that being an 85 so I have no knowledge of what needs to remain or will work without the 87 underhood electronics because that is also part of the stock 87 engine harness. Dropping in the engine is the easy part of the swap. As far as using a 4L80E it isnt going to work out with the existing 3800 pcm as a direct swap and honestly I wouldnt waste time with it since 4L60E live well into the 9s once built properly and a 4L80E is going to rob a lot of extra power because of the weight of all of the internal parts and from what I have heard floorpan modifications are required using that trans-also it wont bolt right up to a fwd style bellhousing pattern so again an adapter would be required. I know that there are a lot of you guys that are interested in this swap and I would love to help out so just be patient and I will see what I can come up with for a few of the things involved to do this, but there is going to be variations like I said and nothing is going to be as simple as plug and play and this is the main reason I dont like doing things like this without being the sole person doing the entire swap in the car.

 

[Turbo V6 Camaro]

The 3800 Series 2 engine was introduced in 1995 in N/A form (L36) ONLY. 1996 was the first year the 3800 Series 2 Supercharged (L67) engine was available. The 3800 Series 3 n/a (L26) and SC (L32) was rolled out in 2004. The 3800 Series 2 engines were still used by GM thru the 2005 model year.

The castings for these heads are basically identical. So if you are going to port the heads and do valve work, it really doesn't matter what year or engine they came off of, IMHO. If you want to use the bigger valves out of the Series 3 heads in a set of Series 2's, I'm sure all that is required is some seat work. But if you are going to go to the trouble of doing this, why not put even bigger valves in them??? I believe Dave at TripleEdgePerformance has experience with this (LS1 valves???).

if you want good heads check out abbott racing thats who did my heads

The 3800 Series 2 (L36) n/a engine was available in the 1995 - 2002 Camaro/Firebird. There is NO tuning software available for 1995 PCMs, period. There is very limited support available for 1996 PCMs but 1997-2002 seem to be the most widely supported. 1998 PCMs are "better" than earlier computers because of their availablility and hardware configuration. Starting in 1999 model year, ALL F-body 3800s came with FLY-BY-WIRE throttle control (has different intake and throttle body vs. earlier engines). I recommend steering clear of this setup for these swaps. I do not know if the 99-up upper intake plenum can accept a cable-op throttle body without adapter plate -- never looked at one that closely.

you you can use HP tuners to tune 1997 and up FYI you can use wiring harness for 1996 cars and just use 1997 PCM (common swap for us fbody guys, 1996 just swap in the 1997 PCM)




From what my research has turned up, I have been able to determine the following based on the information I have been able to find...

-All 3800 Series 2 and 3 blocks are the SAME.

all the stuff that counts but they are not the same... some holes are drill and hit water jackets that the old block do not lol

-All 3800 Series 2 and 3 heads are the same casting; just some minor differences concerning machining for n/a vs. SC apps; and Series 3 vs. Series 2 (mainly valve size as far as I can tell)

NO THEY ARE NOT 98+ heads or the only one that can be used as cores for porting.

-All 3800 Series 2 and 3 cranks are the same. But there might be differences that come in to play in counter balance weight amounts being different between SC and N/A versions to count for the difference in mass of SC vs. N/A rods, pins, pistons, etc.

the FWD crank is different bolt patteren for mounting the fly wheel from what i can gather.

-These engines are balanced externally meaning the harmonic balancer and flywheel have counter balance weights in them. THESE ARE DIFFERENT between N/A and SC engines. The counter balance shaft used in the block above the camshafts are also different between SC and N/A engines.

have the machine shop balance your biuld and get ride of the internal balance (have to any way to run a double roller timing chain for high rate springs

-As mentioned above, connecting rods, pistons, and pins are different between N/A and SC versions of these engines. The SC versions are much beefier (have verified this myself with side-to-side comparisons).

they just have lower CR ratios the SIII rods are very strong.....

-Oil pumps are run directly off the crank and are mounted in the front cover. All are the same Series 2 and 3, n/a and SC. Oil filter mounting housings are removable and there are several different ones available depending on the year/make/model of car the engine was used in. Many are still available new from GM.

yup you can buy a new gear but if you need a new front conver better plan on $200-$250 ouch

If this were a swap I was doing, I would first obtain a SC shortblock (L67 or L32). I would then obtain N/A (L36 or L26) heads. The F-body cars were available with cast aluminum valve covers. All other cars came with composite (combination of plastic/fiberglass) valve covers. If you get a set of SC heads, you will be forced to work with factory composite valve covers because the sealing surface that would allow you to run the n/a valve covers has been partially machined away for the injector holes. There are aftermarket machined aluminum valve covers available for the SC heads, but they are pricey.

i have spare valve cover if any one wants them

Next I would obtain an intake and throttle body from a 1995-98 F-body. You can use an Assy drive (alt, A/C, p/s pump) from any F-body -- if that is what you want to work with. The only problem with this setup is it wants you to put the A/C compressor low on the engine where it will interfere with the crossmember. I have an idea of mounting the factory GN pancake style A/C compressor on the odd (left) cylinder head and running it off the front belt pulley grooves on the SC balancer (all other assy's use the inboard belt pulley grooves).

I would probably make my own wiring harness, but would try to start with one from a 1998 F-body Auto car. I would use a 1998 PCM and a built 4L60-E trans. Would also custom build headers and crossover pipe similar to what Dave at TEP did in his GN swap. Obviously mine would have to be different to accommodate for the A/C compressor / lines.

But that's just what I would do.

-ryan

yup FullThrottleV6.com - V6 Camaro, Firebird, Grand Prix, Mustang, and Challenger Tech Forums has some of most knowledge people on these motors including one guy that has port the oil gally and things

 

[Turbo V6 Camaro]

Sorry I havent been around much guys, i have been buried with work and having a new baby really adds to my lack of time and sleep! I know guys would like to have functional AC on most cars so that likely means a completely different exhaust layout than I made for Codys car though it may be doable. My 86 Cutlass has a supercharged L67 in it with Fbody accessories on it but where the AC compressor is located requires lots of frame modifications and is not a drop-in accessory for a Gbody and also all of the AC lines are in the way of where the downpipe needs to go. I keep pretty busy with transmission work so swap stuff is normally back burner stuff that I dont have much time for but I would love to be able to help you guys out. I know there is concern with making the wiring harnesses and exhaust to make this all happen and being that I do custom swaps for a number of different vehicles I also know that every car is different and it is really difficult to make a "One size fits all" kind of harness. It is not even close to plug and play and requires at least 20 extra wires that must connect to the wirewall connector and go through the firewall for misc stuff that needs hooked up inside the car and these are not just plug in wires, there is lots of tracing, splicing, and replacing the old stuff that has to be done. Also you are faced with the speedo problem, do you spend $400+ on an adapter to use the old cable driven speedo OR do you go digital or aftermarket for a speedo? Then on the 87s you have the whole PM brake setup that is electronic and since Codys car does not have that being an 85 so I have no knowledge of what needs to remain or will work without the 87 underhood electronics because that is also part of the stock 87 engine harness. Dropping in the engine is the easy part of the swap. As far as using a 4L80E it isnt going to work out with the existing 3800 pcm as a direct swap and honestly I wouldnt waste time with it since 4L60E live well into the 9s once built properly and a 4L80E is going to rob a lot of extra power because of the weight of all of the internal parts and from what I have heard floorpan modifications are required using that trans-also it wont bolt right up to a fwd style bellhousing pattern so again an adapter would be required. I know that there are a lot of you guys that are interested in this swap and I would love to help out so just be patient and I will see what I can come up with for a few of the things involved to do this, but there is going to be variations like I said and nothing is going to be as simple as plug and play and this is the main reason I dont like doing things like this without being the sole person doing the entire swap in the car.

my car has AC here is my turbo kit :biggrin: :biggrin:

Garages > TurboV6Camaro's 1997 Chevrolet Camaro - FQuick.com << look at pics

 

[Trannyman95]

The fwd and rwd 3800s use the same flexplate bolt pattern, Codys GN and my Cutlass are both L67 shortblocks with the Fbody flexplate. The difference is not on the crank bolt pattern, it is where the converter bolts on and the 258mm/larger diameter fwd converters have the exact same bolt pattern as the rwd V6 converters but you have to run a .500-.600" spacer. I am having an L67 balanced right now and I also gave them and Fbody balancer and flexplate so they can spin it afterwards with those components so I will know exactly how much off the weighting is and if it is significant. That header setup looks pretty nice! My concern as mentioned above isnt so much the layout that I used and yours is the same direction as mine, but you cant use the AC compressor and bracket arrangement in a Gbody because you have to cut a bit out of the frame and box it back it which is a lot of work that most people arent going to want to do. As far as the head core comment above guys have claimed that the 97 and earlier cores are weaker in the valve spring area and those cores wont be accepted but I have ported a few sets of those and never had a problem and they are still on the road working just fine so Im not sure who had the bad luck but I cant account for any in the past 6 years I have been porting these heads.

 

[GBGN1]

Anyone tinkering with one of these right now?

 

[CTX-SLPR]

Sorta, I'm using an L67 EFI system on my 4.1 but its still aways from being running as I'm working on the plumbing system till it warms up so I don't worry about messing up any of the plastic connectors when I'm cutting and splicing.

I really need to know how to hook up the fuel pump, fans... ect that run off of the non engine harness block.

 

[GBGN1]

Gathering parts myself but was hoping someone would make a wiring harness for this.Headers would be nice too....I can dream:smile:

 

[cnoble64]

Question

I have not read the whole thread, but if we could get a intake and headers made, could we use our old stuff. We could still look stock. For give me if this has already been talked about.

 

[Darth Fiero]

I have not read the whole thread, but if we could get a intake and headers made, could we use our old stuff. We could still look stock. For give me if this has already been talked about.

I suppose you could use the stock F-body lower intake and have a custom upper made that looks similar to stock GN and also accepts the stock GN throttle body. Anything is possible.

 

[CTX-SLPR]

I didn't know that the Aluminum F-body intake was in 2 pieces. Is 1 a valley plate and the other the actual intake?

 

[Darth Fiero]

I didn't know that the Aluminum F-body intake was in 2 pieces. Is 1 a valley plate and the other the actual intake?

The lower intake has runners and injector holes. The runner length in the lower intake isn't all that much, I think just 3 inches or so... The upper plenum section has runners going into it as well, but you cannot get inside the plenum easily as the throttle body opening isn't very large.

 

[murphinator]

I know both Cody & Dave mentioned new babies in this thread so I am sure life got busy but I am just curious what if anything is planned for the S2GN this season ?

At some point i want a S2/S3 3800 RWD and this is the active project with the most potential

 

[xXch0dyXx]

no big plans really, maybe just a gen II translator, some A/C, get the really tune dialed in, and a few 10sec slips at under 20psi

going to get some interior/luxury things worked out. hopefully i dont have to do the rearend this year, but that may happen too.

we both got busy and didnt really get back to dialing the car COMPLETELY in last season. hell, the one track trip was hot lapped at like 17psi with NOOOOO prep. no tire pressure even looked at, no cool down, nothing.

one thing is for sure, it will run 10's, and it will do it without effort

i cant stress enough how much the drivability has changed with the S2. its amazing how great it drives and reacts. if you dont think the #'s it put down are respectable for only running 24hrs b4 its trip to the track, then come take a ride and it will change you mind ; - )

 

[TURBOPOWERED68]

can you post some under hood pictures to see what it looks like?

 

[xXch0dyXx]

there are some back on pg one i believe along with vids on one of the pages

 

[CTX-SLPR]

Can you try and get Trannyman to help me out with some info? I'm trying to get mine wired and I got the engine stuff sorted out, now its putting the power to the fans, FP, and the other things coming off of the 2nd harness block on the fuse and relay center. I am about 3 weeks away from starting that part of the project.

thanks,

 

[Turbo V6 Camaro]

what info do you need? i may be able to help

 

[CTX-SLPR]

Basically trying to save myself a ton of work and reinventing the wheel by finding out what wires are used out of the "2nd" harness block off of the fuse and relay center for the fuel pump and maybe some other functions. Also need information on what of the engine harness I need for installing the OBDII port in the car.

Definitions: 1st harness block, engine harness, think this one is black (don't have it here with me); 2nd harness block, body side, red; 3rd harness block, headlights and fog lights, white.

Thanks,

 

[Turbo V6 Camaro]

Basically trying to save myself a ton of work and reinventing the wheel by finding out what wires are used out of the "2nd" harness block off of the fuse and relay center for the fuel pump and maybe some other functions. Also need information on what of the engine harness I need for installing the OBDII port in the car.

Definitions: 1st harness block, engine harness, think this one is black (don't have it here with me); 2nd harness block, body side, red; 3rd harness block, headlights and fog lights, white.

Thanks,

err what year? my take a while to get it, cause things changed from year to year on the fbody

i have the PCM pinout for every year if that would help any at all?

 

[CTX-SLPR]

harness is out of a 98 W-body Grand Prix GT