Sometimes you just gotta start over....

[SGRIM]

I am so happy to see that thing jump like that... As Don stated that wasn't a full pull by any means. Just a teaser:biggrin:

I have come to some realizations recently. This motor or any Buick V6 isn't going to make 2000hp, at the FW or RW. I will be THRILLED to see close to 1400 at the wheels to be honest... That would get the job done and then some.... Dyno numbers to not really mean all that much IMO, the track tells the tell.... Never the less I am happy as a ..... :biggrin: :biggrin: :biggrin:

I think we may need a converter change already, going to talk to Dusty and get that going...

 

[TURBOKID]

I am so happy to see that thing jump like that... As Don stated that wasn't a full pull by any means. Just a teaser:biggrin:

I have come to some realizations recently. This motor or any Buick V6 isn't going to make 2000hp, at the FW or RW. I will be THRILLED to see close to 1400 at the wheels to be honest... That would get the job done and then some.... Dyno numbers to not really mean all that much IMO, the track tells the tell.... Never the less I am happy as a ..... :biggrin: :biggrin: :biggrin:

I think we may need a converter change already, going to talk to Dusty and get that going...

Shane you are now seeing the light:biggrin: You are talking right now, you should be able to see that or really close to it, and with it all right at the track you should be able to do what you set out for. Just a thought and I know randy has thought about it because we have talked about it, Maybe you should get a smaller tire for the back loose that much more weight and you want have to fight the tire shake you are going to have with those steam rollers. Just thinking out loud good luck

 

[Alky V6]

Get that tuneup closer before you make a decision on the T/C.

Right at converter stall, you should find that you will have to pull quite a bit of fuel from it. I suspect that the rough running in the video was close to stall speed? With the engine running like that at stall, you cannot make a fair determination about the stall speed. Not to mention that there is no way the turbos are going to spool with that missing and overrich condition going on.

 

[TURBO54]

the rich start up was caused by turning the coils off first. It left some extra fuel in the motor. So after checking the plugs we spin the motor over to clear out any left over fuel. I was checking the air fuel and setting the boost level. That is why it was only a short pull. will have to add a little fuel during boost transition. Timing is still low. The funny thing is seeing the boost gauge accelerate faster than the tach. These turbos spool well. I think we will run around 19 to 24 pounds ........each. The a/f was in the 3.8 on low boost and creeping up to 4.0 with higher boost, will need more fuel prolly 2200 to 2500 lbs per hour. It was at 1950 on the last pull.

 

[TURBO54]

our first attempt on the brake netted 5 psi in 2.8 seconds. That was on the lowest boost setting. The first pull was only 7 psi and that is what spring is in the gates.

 

[JOHNDEEREGN]

our first attempt on the brake netted 5 psi in 2.8 seconds. That was on the lowest boost setting. The first pull was only 7 psi and that is what spring is in the gates.

ONLY 7 PSI :biggrin:

 

[Alky V6]

the rich start up was caused by turning the coils off first. It left some extra fuel in the motor. So after checking the plugs we spin the motor over to clear out any left over fuel. I was checking the air fuel and setting the boost level. That is why it was only a short pull. will have to add a little fuel during boost transition. Timing is still low. The funny thing is seeing the boost gauge accelerate faster than the tach. These turbos spool well. I think we will run around 19 to 24 pounds ........each. The a/f was in the 3.8 on low boost and creeping up to 4.0 with higher boost, will need more fuel prolly 2200 to 2500 lbs per hour. It was at 1950 on the last pull.

Yep. You are going to need much more fuel. 1950 is a target for my puny engine! Lean out that low boost a/f. Way too rich. You shouldn't need to be richer than 4.7 at stall, 0 boost. That will clean up the engine, push the stall speed up, and help get those turbos spooling too. Don't expect a linear fuel curve with that monster. Especially at and before T/C stall.

Depending on your static CR, the fireworks should just begin to start at 8 psi and over.

 

[TURBO54]

no the second pull had 20+. The reason i want it to miss is to help kick start the turbos. Donnie what compression is your motor

 

[Alky V6]

no the second pull had 20+. The reason i want it to miss is to help kick start the turbos. Donnie what compression is your motor

It will be interesting to see if you can get the missing trick to spool the turbos. Alcohol unburned in the exhaust tends to cool things way down. A little different than with gasoline. At least, that has been my experience.

I've run 10.4, then 11.27 and presently 9.10:1. I've found that the more static CR you run, the more limited you are on boost. And I run an intercooler!

With 11.27, the safe boost limit was 22 psi boost. With 9.10:1, the safe boost limit is 40 to 45 psi. Judging by the performance so far, my present chassis is not going to handle much over 24 psi with this new turbo.

You should find that the dynamic CR limit, depending on other tuning parameters, should fall between 30 to 35:1.

 

[TURBO54]

I feel this motor combo will need 30 plus to make the number we are looking for. For these turbos it seems to be where they are happy. On the last pull i was wot for 1.787 seconds. the pull strarted at 3000 rpm and went to 7500 in that time. so seeing this is why i think the convertor may need to tightened up a little.

 

[Alky V6]

I feel this motor combo will need 30 plus to make the number we are looking for. For these turbos it seems to be where they are happy. On the last pull i was wot for 1.787 seconds. the pull strarted at 3000 rpm and went to 7500 in that time. so seeing this is why i think the convertor may need to tightened up a little.

Good. I thought you were thinking of going looser. But then, were the tires losing traction? It did look like the car jumped off the rollers.

I think you're right about the boost target. The 20s is just the tip of the iceberg.

My steam comment was directed at the steam I noticed coming from the oil tank vent, catch can/breather. Alcohol guys notice that stuff.

Make sure the engine has some good heat in it on your pulls. Alcohol engines like to be at least 160 F. My best runs have been with engine temps even higher.

 

[TURBO54]

We had 140 and not running a radiator so it holds heat pretty well. Yes the fuel has side effects lol. After the first pull we had to open all the doors to get the fumes out. i thought i was going to need a gas mask. Also it was about 50 degrees on the shop.

 

[John Wilde]

Wow, great posts Don.

BTW I was not suggesting this motor would make 1800RWHP.
But I would think that 1500RWHP plus would be possible.
Based on numbers I have heard out of Duttweiler's
shop, his gas motors are capable of close to 1400RWHP.

 

[Alky V6]

We had 140 and not running a radiator so it holds heat pretty well. Yes the fuel has side effects lol. After the first pull we had to open all the doors to get the fumes out. i thought i was going to need a gas mask. Also it was about 50 degrees on the shop.

LOL. I have some buddies that can actually stand in a garage full of alky exhaust and act like it doesn't bother them at all.

Particularly at off boost, as you lean on the a/f, the fumes will not be as bad.

 

[Alky V6]

Wow, great posts Don.

BTW I was not suggesting this motor would make 1800RWHP.
But I would think that 1500RWHP plus would be possible.
Based on numbers I have heard out of Duttweiler's
shop, his gas motors are capable of close to 1400RWHP.

After tuning alcohol for almost 10 years, you do tend to learn something. And, I've only blown up two in that learning curve.

I have some calculations that suggest 1800 to 1900 bhp is possible with alcohol.

 

[John Wilde]

I have some calculations that suggest 1800 to 1900 bhp is possible with alcohol.

I would agree I have already heard of an 1800hp 3.5 liter v6 on alky.
For what Big Wood wants to do, I don't think they need to push it that hard.
BTW the combination I am talking about is a GM DOHC Motor.

 

[SGRIM]

1350 at the wheels would be about 1600 at the crank! I just wonder how much more the block can take than that... We aren't going to push it, YET (as in when a while from now)

 

[Alky V6]

My calcs for the 18 to 1900bhp are based on a big cube (no bigger than what most are doing), stage II headed, single turbo, alcohol fueled Buick V6 engine with cylinder pressures at a safe max limit. The fuel is being pushed to the limit. Camshaft is a bit wild and the horsepower peaks beyond 9,000 rpm.

Intercooled, of course.

It's my dream engine, if I ever have the money to build it.

 

[Alky V6]

1350 at the wheels would be about 1600 at the crank! I just wonder how much more the block can take than that... We aren't going to push it, YET (as in when a while from now)

I would guess you're going to find more than that.

Don't be stingy with the fuel as boost climbs. You need it without an intercooler. If you find the engine to be peaky, which is how it appeared in the video, it could be a sign that you're near the lean limit for your combination. Throw fuel at it in massive amounts until the engine gets lazy or starts missing and work leaner from there.

Nothing is worse than hearing a rod fold on you at the height of one of those peaky rpm rises. Memmories of Las Vegas 2005.

I would setup your fuel requirement on the top end to handle 1700 bhp at an a/f of 3.5:1 and carefully start there.

 

[Alky V6]

Be careful working towards a plateau hp figure on the dyno. Since you're not running an intercooler, you are forced to throw more fuel at it for intake charge cooling. That alone will hurt the hp figure. Keep in mind that an alcohol engine really starts to purk up as you lean into it. Right up to the point where you wish you hadn't tried to squeeze that last little bit of hp out of her. Watch your EGTs and especially, the spark plugs. Start out with a target of burning the plating on one thread. Watch the heat marking on the ground electrode too. Halfway back should be the target. Watch for signs of the ground electrode starting to loose sharpness at the end (melting). I would cut back the ground electrodes as much as possible. Or better yet, use retracted gap plugs.