Stage II
- Thread starter NEIL
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I think 86brick's $1075 is a pretty close price even though he didn't include all the shipping that would put it over $1100. I wouldn't include the laptop price, because you're gonna need that with either setup. As for a sequentail unit. IMO opinion it is a waste of money for 90% of the people with injectors less than 160#'s. Unlike a DFI, a FAST fires a 6 cylinder B2B every other rotation just like a sequential box does (4 & 8 cylinder B2B's are another matter). This means much better injector control at idle.
Originally posted by Mac in SD
As far as chip-burning knowledge, I think you're assuming a pretty good level of knowledge for someone to EFFECTIVELY tune a FAST in a reasonable amount of time. That, or know somebody (somebody like you) who can help you tune it. Either way, most people gonna need some help, right?
If someone buys a FAST from me, I ship it with a program in it that will have them "mostly" tuned. Once they fire the car up, I have them call me on the phone and we finish tuning the idle. At that time I teach them how to finish tuning it. Generally, this call takes less than an hour. Keep in mind, the FAST system is pretty forgiving due to the close loop WOT. I then make sure they have my cell phone number in case they need any other help. Most of the time, I don't get the second phone call.
WARNING! INFOMERCIAL TO FOLLOW:
The startup program and the additional help is something I do with every FAST customer I have. This is why I suggest you buy the system from someone with a good tuning reputation (i.e. PTE), not just the lowest bidder. Nothing "irks" me more than someone calling for a quote on a FAST then calling me back a few weeks later to help them tune what they bought from some other vendor who went $20 under my quote.
MAC: I know you haven't ran the car at the track yet, but I am curious how high your MAF readings go. In other words, have you hit over 500 gps yet?
Also, we need to keep in mind that Neil's goals might be mid to low 9's which would definately not be very smart to try with the stock ECM (realisticly I think low 10's to high 9's is the fastest you'd want to push the stock ECM)....
...and we're back.
Hi, guys. Okay, where were we?
Cal, I haven't maxed out the MAF yet as I'm still in the break-in, feel it out mode. I'm using an OTC, not scanmaster. I've got an Extreme Extender to play with, but the car seems to run so well on the Brutal 6 chip, I'm just enjoying the drive so far. But that brings up a good point in the "cost computations."
I've been assuming all along that before somebody goes S2, they've got all the basics, including some sort of scan tool, and maybe I'm wrong to do that, but do me a favor and call that a gimme. I question whether you really need the Translator Plus, too. The only adjustability that it gains over the standard Translator is timing: and really, you're going to set up your street timing and race timing programs, and pretty much leave it alone, I think. Extender chip is a good point, so I'll give you that.
Leave injectors out of it...you need them either way. I'm running 96's.
One more cost issue: you don't have to spend $20K to get a decent street/strip S2 capable of 9.90's. There. I said it again!
But 86Brick, you're still talking about an additional $1500 for the FAST setup, at least! Hell, you can buy a useable S2 block for that! I'm not arguing that FAST isn't a great way to go, just that you don't NEED to go that way.
I swear I'll keep you guys posted on how this turns out in the long run. It may not work. I may hurt the engine (although a head gasket seems more likely than any catastrophic death-bomb.) But you can't tell me that plenty of guys running FAST or DFI haven't hurt their engines too. GNScott makes a good point about the 9.99-low 10's vs. mid 9's distinction. My goals are 9.90's on an very limited basis (pretty much just to say I've done it. ) If you want to consistently run mid-low 9's on a regular basis, week-in and week-out, then you probably need the FAST.
I love this forum!
Hi, guys. Okay, where were we?
Cal, I haven't maxed out the MAF yet as I'm still in the break-in, feel it out mode. I'm using an OTC, not scanmaster. I've got an Extreme Extender to play with, but the car seems to run so well on the Brutal 6 chip, I'm just enjoying the drive so far. But that brings up a good point in the "cost computations."
I've been assuming all along that before somebody goes S2, they've got all the basics, including some sort of scan tool, and maybe I'm wrong to do that, but do me a favor and call that a gimme.
I question whether you really need the Translator Plus, too. The only adjustability that it gains over the standard Translator is timing: and really, you're going to set up your street timing and race timing programs, and pretty much leave it alone, I think. Extender chip is a good point, so I'll give you that.Leave injectors out of it...you need them either way. I'm running 96's.
One more cost issue: you don't have to spend $20K to get a decent street/strip S2 capable of 9.90's. There. I said it again!
But 86Brick, you're still talking about an additional $1500 for the FAST setup, at least! Hell, you can buy a useable S2 block for that! I'm not arguing that FAST isn't a great way to go, just that you don't NEED to go that way.
I swear I'll keep you guys posted on how this turns out in the long run. It may not work. I may hurt the engine (although a head gasket seems more likely than any catastrophic death-bomb.) But you can't tell me that plenty of guys running FAST or DFI haven't hurt their engines too. GNScott makes a good point about the 9.99-low 10's vs. mid 9's distinction. My goals are 9.90's on an very limited basis (pretty much just to say I've done it.
) If you want to consistently run mid-low 9's on a regular basis, week-in and week-out, then you probably need the FAST. I love this forum!
I'm wondering if the discussion isn't more one of dollars and cents vs. convenience and control over one of which is more adept at controlling a car at the levels you're talking about.
Let's assume that the average "joe" here is running close to/into the 10's (not me
)
So, such a person probably has his motor all setup or built to do so, and as such has most of the items needed to get to his/her goal. This includes such items as a laptop, and fast scan tool so let's not factor those in. Anyone running in the 9 or 10's without a fast scan tool..... well. shame shame.
So what are we left with?
I don't know the cost of a sequential/wideband FAST. what? maybe $2,000+ ?? nothing else included.
Mac's estimates on the T+/MAF/Ext costs are pretty close, albiet a little high, but let's assume full retail. So we're talking what? maybe $550.
I know what FAST gives you! All the tuneability in the world, plus the wideband O2 feedback loop. Something not available with the stock ECM
The biggest complaint I've always had against the FAST system (love to have one BTW) is the things it CAN'T do for the guy that wants the things the stock ECM DOES offer.
1. Sequential injector control (cheaply)
2. TCC control (if you're going to spend 2large for an ECM why should you have to be saddled with a manual switch for TCC)
My biggest complaint!
3. Wastegate control. Not such a big deal with BstC now on the market.
4. A/C control
All these things are "street" car conveniences. But with such a high degree of sophisticaion you'd think somebody would have thought of these things when the design went together.
Oh Well, I'll get out of everybody's way here. You guy's cars are to fast for me to even dream about yet.
Let's assume that the average "joe" here is running close to/into the 10's (not me
)So, such a person probably has his motor all setup or built to do so, and as such has most of the items needed to get to his/her goal. This includes such items as a laptop, and fast scan tool so let's not factor those in. Anyone running in the 9 or 10's without a fast scan tool..... well. shame shame.
So what are we left with?
I don't know the cost of a sequential/wideband FAST. what? maybe $2,000+ ?? nothing else included.
Mac's estimates on the T+/MAF/Ext costs are pretty close, albiet a little high, but let's assume full retail. So we're talking what? maybe $550.
I know what FAST gives you! All the tuneability in the world, plus the wideband O2 feedback loop. Something not available with the stock ECM
The biggest complaint I've always had against the FAST system (love to have one BTW) is the things it CAN'T do for the guy that wants the things the stock ECM DOES offer.
1. Sequential injector control (cheaply)
2. TCC control (if you're going to spend 2large for an ECM why should you have to be saddled with a manual switch for TCC)
My biggest complaint!3. Wastegate control. Not such a big deal with BstC now on the market.
4. A/C control
All these things are "street" car conveniences. But with such a high degree of sophisticaion you'd think somebody would have thought of these things when the design went together.
Oh Well, I'll get out of everybody's way here. You guy's cars are to fast for me to even dream about yet.
If a FAST system is better for a guy going mid 9's, why isn't it better for a guy running low 10's or high 9's?
One other point I would like to bring up is how much faster people "tend" to go with the FAST system. No one can question Red's tuning abilty, yet he couldn't outrun Bruce's car when nearly everything else was equal and he's one of the best tuners in the buisness. Correct me if I am wrong, but I think he was having tuning issues with his car at BG this year? Look how close the ET's were with Jason's car (stock block, FAST & 70 turbo) and Red's car (Stage2, stock ecm, and 76 turbo). I am NOT picking on Red. He and Jay Carter are a couple of the best chip makers out there. I just think that when one of the best in the buisness runs about the same as the average Joe (no offense Jason), that tells me something.
TurboDave: In response to what FAST is lacking,
1) AC control isn't needed, just a little more focus on idle tuning.
2) I say again, no need for sequential with a 6 cylinder FAST
3) Very few Stage motor cars run the stock wastegate control
4) TCC control is a conveniance, but I agree it is missing it.
In summary, I am not arguing the initial cost outlay. I am arguing that in the long run the FAST will be cheaper and quicker to tune (time is money). Maybe when Mac's motor finally gets broken in and he runs some big numbers, I will rethink things.
One other point I would like to bring up is how much faster people "tend" to go with the FAST system. No one can question Red's tuning abilty, yet he couldn't outrun Bruce's car when nearly everything else was equal and he's one of the best tuners in the buisness. Correct me if I am wrong, but I think he was having tuning issues with his car at BG this year? Look how close the ET's were with Jason's car (stock block, FAST & 70 turbo) and Red's car (Stage2, stock ecm, and 76 turbo). I am NOT picking on Red. He and Jay Carter are a couple of the best chip makers out there. I just think that when one of the best in the buisness runs about the same as the average Joe (no offense Jason), that tells me something.
TurboDave: In response to what FAST is lacking,
1) AC control isn't needed, just a little more focus on idle tuning.
2) I say again, no need for sequential with a 6 cylinder FAST
3) Very few Stage motor cars run the stock wastegate control
4) TCC control is a conveniance, but I agree it is missing it.
In summary, I am not arguing the initial cost outlay. I am arguing that in the long run the FAST will be cheaper and quicker to tune (time is money). Maybe when Mac's motor finally gets broken in and he runs some big numbers, I will rethink things.
Fast or DFI
What makes the Fast system better than the DFI unit? The DFI sells for $1430 through Summit plus $85 for the 3 bar map for the SFI unit? Does the DFI have TCC? This is very important to me I did not spend $850 for the lock up convertor for nothing and I want the ECM to control it!
What makes the Fast system better than the DFI unit? The DFI sells for $1430 through Summit plus $85 for the 3 bar map for the SFI unit? Does the DFI have TCC? This is very important to me I did not spend $850 for the lock up convertor for nothing and I want the ECM to control it!
Guess I was looking at it from a "streetability" point of view. I just have a hard time understanding why the design limitations were so restrictive? Why couldn't a "box" like FAST be made at least as powerful (faster of course) that that clunky old ECM that's stock in the car? Why the limitations? and extrodinary costs? Why couldn't it have been made to do everything the stock ECM could do and more!
I don't want to be spouting up here on my soapbox anylonger. I'm just griped because something so nice as the FAST could have been made to do everything it now does, and everything the stock ECM does, that is, run a streetable car that could, in a pinch, even be taken through smog!! No, I'm no longer talking a stage motor, but you see my point.
I'm not argueing with you at all, I know you and your expertise are far beyond what I could muster up, so don't get me wrong.
I guess I just keep forgetting what these things were originally designed to do.
As for missing those items I mentioned, most of those would be for convenience/streetability. Why not sequential in a 6 cyl FAST? Make for a much better mannered motor. AC controls are for a daily driver, etc.
I guess all my concerns came about because I wanted to run a non-stage motor with a FAST, and couldn't. My car is not a pure race car, and every couple years it had to get through smog; it had to be a well mannered daily driver, etc. etc.
So I'm enjoying the benefits of other technologies (T+/extender)
BTW, I'd bet when MAC's car gets some serious tuning by the local Translator experts, you'll be surprised just how much horsepower can be developed with a clunky old stock ECM, and modern add on electronic controls such as the T+/Extender combo. I still think there's easy 9's to be had there.
I would agree with Dave on the "streetablilty" issues with the FAST. Actually Dave check out the performance ecm section on the FAST vs. TEC vs. GEN 7 ECM. Although my commentary was challenged I still believe the GEN 7 is the answer to the shortcomings of the FAST system. I do like the FAST system, and it brings a smile to my face after running 30+ PSI on a stock block running the #'s listed below. I can't stress the value of the datalogs after each run.
P.S. the difference in the FAST system VS the DFI(older versions) from what I have heard is if there is a problem(sensor related or wiring) the FAST will shut down your engine and the DFI will keep running it and possibly hurting a expensive engine.
P.S. the difference in the FAST system VS the DFI(older versions) from what I have heard is if there is a problem(sensor related or wiring) the FAST will shut down your engine and the DFI will keep running it and possibly hurting a expensive engine.
NO DISRESPECT
Alright, I don't mean any disrespect to anyone, BUT lets wake up. The conversation is a null one with regard to a chip vs speed pro. To top it all of we are discussing as mentioned earlier a Stage II set up. If anyone needs to start listing comparisons for DFI vs Speed Pro vs a chip, they have very little real world experience with all three.
Yes, a chip can be burned
Yes, a DFI will work,
Yes, a Speed Pro will work,
BUT hey, F' it, lets go motec.
Come on, We are not living 15-20 years ago when chips etc, were the only thing available(and rudamentry), technology is on our door step and banging very hard, answer the door. In Neil's original post I started thinking, If this guy needs to ask these fundamental questions maybe he shouldn't be playing with a stage II set up. But than I thought hey, everyone has a right to ask as many questions as appropriate to find their path. Fair enough. Now, for everyone else, lets be straight to it. GIVE up to date info.
Neil go buy yourself a F.A.S.T system (speed pro). and be done with it.
All of the facts support it,
32 bit processor
user friendly set-up (relatively speaking)
cost vs benifit- give me a break on this one.
This is 2002, not 1987 where we are thinking...uhmm If I could put a set of SVO injectors in and If I could just stop that damm back fire at the end of the quarter I'd be set.
GOOD LUCK NEIL.. Give em hell
Alright, I don't mean any disrespect to anyone, BUT lets wake up. The conversation is a null one with regard to a chip vs speed pro. To top it all of we are discussing as mentioned earlier a Stage II set up. If anyone needs to start listing comparisons for DFI vs Speed Pro vs a chip, they have very little real world experience with all three.
Yes, a chip can be burned
Yes, a DFI will work,
Yes, a Speed Pro will work,
BUT hey, F' it, lets go motec.
Come on, We are not living 15-20 years ago when chips etc, were the only thing available(and rudamentry), technology is on our door step and banging very hard, answer the door. In Neil's original post I started thinking, If this guy needs to ask these fundamental questions maybe he shouldn't be playing with a stage II set up. But than I thought hey, everyone has a right to ask as many questions as appropriate to find their path. Fair enough. Now, for everyone else, lets be straight to it. GIVE up to date info.
Neil go buy yourself a F.A.S.T system (speed pro). and be done with it.
All of the facts support it,
32 bit processor
user friendly set-up (relatively speaking)
cost vs benifit- give me a break on this one.
This is 2002, not 1987 where we are thinking...uhmm If I could put a set of SVO injectors in and If I could just stop that damm back fire at the end of the quarter I'd be set.
GOOD LUCK NEIL.. Give em hell
Dave's making sense...to me at least.
I think there's more and more people out here re-looking the Stock ECM, and realizing that in many ways it's more sophisticated than most aftermarket ecm's. The only drawback was always the need to burn a chip. However, with the adjustability provided by Trans +, Extenders, MaxEfforts, etc, it's now a perfectly viable...and SEQUENTIAL...system for a hot street car, including those with Stage 2 motors. (Which, by the way, are not made of gold. )
If the FAST / DFI approach is such a slam-dunk, then why is the aftermarket ECM forum on this BB so full of posts from people with tuning problems?
I think there's more and more people out here re-looking the Stock ECM, and realizing that in many ways it's more sophisticated than most aftermarket ecm's. The only drawback was always the need to burn a chip. However, with the adjustability provided by Trans +, Extenders, MaxEfforts, etc, it's now a perfectly viable...and SEQUENTIAL...system for a hot street car, including those with Stage 2 motors. (Which, by the way, are not made of gold.
)If the FAST / DFI approach is such a slam-dunk, then why is the aftermarket ECM forum on this BB so full of posts from people with tuning problems?
"If the FAST / DFI approach is such a slam-dunk, then why is the aftermarket ECM forum on this BB so full of posts from people with tuning problems?"
Mac,
If you are going down that road you also have to consider the number of blown head gaskets etc. that are posted daily in the General Tech. You could make the argument that this is a result of the stock ECM and poor tuning.
Jeff
Mac,
If you are going down that road you also have to consider the number of blown head gaskets etc. that are posted daily in the General Tech. You could make the argument that this is a result of the stock ECM and poor tuning.
Jeff
Jeff, no doubt about it. What I was getting at was that a FAST or DFI is no guarantee against engine damage, either. You can hurt an engine with either system, as I'm sure you're aware.
I'm going to opt out of any futher discussions on this. It's been fun, but...
I'm going to opt out of any futher discussions on this. It's been fun, but...
Basically, if everybody here had to program and burn thier own chips, it would make the performace ECM section look like there was nobody there considering what little tuning is really at your fingertips with the stock ECM when a good programmer hands you a chip that is pretty close to on the money. The stock ECM is fantastic, but there are many features with the FAST that will indicate potential problems in many cases before serious damage occurs. Obviousley, if one ignores the basic tuning skills and knowledge of what to "feel" for when tuning, there isn't anything that any performace ECM (or stocker) can do to stop the inevitable unless it can figure out a way to take the keys away. There are many cases where Stage II cars are dialed in with the stock ECM and have great success. In those cases I can't see why anybody would want to change, but starting out, why not go with the best available?
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