Stage vs. GN1R

[JoyOf6]

I'm considering building another 274" engine to keep me interested in this Buick game. Let's say you had access to any parts you wanted, and stock-configuration didn't matter. If you were building a single-turbo Stage engine in a relatively heavy car (>3000#) mainly for racing (let's say 150-160 mph for argument's sake), would you build around Stage heads or GN1R/M&A style heads? Explain.

This has been touched upon before, but the huge variation and tremendous overlap in the performance of race cars with Champion vs. Stage heads doesn't yield a whole lot of insight to the casual observer. This is presumably due to the widely varying goals of everyone.

*Grouchy content*: I posted in this Forum to elicit opinions only from those who build Stage engines or race their own sub-10-sec cars.

Art

 

[KendallF]

The Stage heads have some significant advantages, at least on paper. They flow more, they can take a much bigger spring, they have more meat to support the guides and more meat in general, and they can be had fairly inexpensively with top notch port work.

I am convinced two things hold most of the milder single turbo S2 headed cars from achieving what they might: the ATR single headers and downpipe size. IMO that passenger side header is worse than ATR's design for the stock style heads, and cars with a 3" DP are limited by it.

There are a lot of variables, as you mentioned, but those two factors roughly divide a lot of single turbo 9 second S2 headed cars from the single turbo 8 second S2 headed cars. When Dave Fiscus built the downpipe from hell for his car, he picked up bunch; I don't recall exactly but perhaps 1/2 a second ET!

Now Cal and a couple of others are going 8s with the Champions. This is incredible by any standard. I think that these guys would tell you that they're pushing the limits and that the heads are a regular check and re-work item at that level. In my opinion, the S2 heads are more reliable.

At this point, I think it gets down to your preferences and goals..do you want to run the increased revs to take advantage of the extra head flow of the S2s? Do you want to do the extra work to get the intake, cam, headers, etc. set up? If you want to go the "ton of boost, lower RPM, bolt the intake and accessories on and go" route, maybe the GN1s/TA heads are the right choice.

Oh..one more thing; Art, you can discount my thoughts if you like since my car(s) haven't gone sub-10s yet. If you do though, I'll have to tell you what I really think of your red accessories under the hood!

 

[JoyOf6]

Originally posted by KendallF
The Stage heads have some significant advantages, at least on paper.
... the ATR single headers and downpipe size ...those two factors roughly divide a lot of single turbo 9 second S2 headed cars from the single turbo 8 second S2 headed cars. When Dave Fiscus built the downpipe from hell for his car, he picked up bunch; I don't recall exactly but perhaps 1/2 a second ET!
Now Cal and a couple of others are going 8s with the Champions. This is incredible by any standard. ...do you want to run the increased revs to take advantage of the extra head flow of the S2s? Do you want to do the extra work to get the intake, cam, headers, etc. set up? If you want to go the "ton of boost, lower RPM, bolt the intake and accessories on and go" route, maybe the GN1s/TA heads are the right choice.

Oh..one more thing; Art, you can discount my thoughts if you like since my car(s) haven't gone sub-10s yet. If you do though, I'll have to tell you what I really think of your red accessories under the hood!

Thanks for the opinions, you've articulated what was brewing in my mind. I have to decide whether I want an engine similar to my current one or, as you say, do things to take advantage of a higher-flowing stout head (which I also have on the shelf). My Excedrin budget may be the deciding factor. Yes, I'd like to spin it high, say, high 7K instead of current high 6K. Any header/dp plumbing issue and head set-up work can be dealt with.

BTW, with my LT88, I noticed very little improvement going from a 3" to 4" dp, so I tentatively conclude that a larger exhaust wheel and/or housing is required to take advantage of that change in my combo. I hope to test that this year.

You're building your Stage engine and car, you qualify to respond . My request may have been rude... consider the source. Feel free to use my accessories against me, perfectly fair game! I know some people believe that what I did to my engine compartment is repulsive, and I understand that. It's part of a pattern of behavior. I think I yearn for reminders of good old parental disapproval.

Art

 

[TurboTR]

Hmm, well my opinion is, why rehash a combo like what you already have? I think the ported stage heads open up a new area of potential performance for you. 300+ cfm int, 250+ cfm exh is mighty tempting IMO.

OR, if the new T 'n A Perf heads live up to the early claims of 300 cfm on the intake, I guess that at least complicates the decision process again. To be honest though, after having gone through it with the Champeens, that little shelf-like design for the extra bolt holes from the current pics of those heads scares me a bit...

I guess it boils down to what you really want performance-wise. Do you really plan to go 160 mph, parachute and all? I'd say go with the better flowing heads. I'd like to see you do an S2 heads car personally. JMO.

TurboTR

 

[Mac in SD]

Wow! I didn't think I was qualified to post a response, but after seeing how you welcomed Kendall's input, I'll say:
Go Stage 2 !!! I LOVE my Stage 2 heads. You'll love them too.

 

[86brick]

I don't build Stage engines and I don't race a sub-10-sec car, but I'm not giving any opinion on this topic so maybe one of you Stage II guys can answer some questions I have about Stage II heads (if you don't mind Art)....
~~~ How well do out of the box or stock unported Stage II heads flow (CFM #'s)?
~~~ How much money will you spend for a nice set of ported Stage II heads that flow over 300 CFM on the intake side and how much will an unported set of Stage II heads cost?
~~~ Do most guys use iron or aluminum Stage II heads?
~~~ Can you still get these heads new from GM or do you have to buy them used like most Stage II stuff?


I would really appreciate some answers if that is okay with Art!
Art, if you don't want me asking any questions I will leave and delete this post....
TIA

 

[Turbo231]

I vote Stage II ...
I was going to build "just a SII shortblock" to stick under my M&A heads. When I called to order the roller cam I was told that I'd better run Stage II heads on top to get the most out of it.
Then I started talking to people with Stage heads and everyone was saying the same things and I became a convert!
Buick spent alot of money R&D'ing these heads and they were ment to be pushed hard. They don't leak unless you go port crazy, and they can give the hoover dam a run for it's money on flow. There are alot of known good things about them that you can't say about other heads.

You can also say you have a "true" stage II because it's not a stage II without the heads......

 

[JoyOf6]

OK, sorry for the tone, I just didn't want to get buried in a barrage of anecdotal references. It happens, ya know.

Todd, I threw out that mph RANGE since it wouldn't make sense for me to ask how to run 144, or anything in that area as that's about what my car runs now. Nothing more to that comment than that. A 'chute is inevitable (150) one of these years. I started out thinking of building a backup engine, then thought I might regret that boring decision, then thought about ditching the Regal for a light roller, then realized I wanted to stay Buick, and now it's time to plan something. No, this didn't all happen in one day . I am leaning towards the Stage heads/combo, it'll be more of an adventure. Making the field someday in the True 10.5 stock suspension class in the Clash of the Titans would be one goal. I blame you profusely for turning me on to that wild mob scene of phenomenal cars in S.A. last November . In the meantime, I'll continue to happily run and tweak my current combo.

Mac, I will try to draw up more specific guidelines next time (no, never again, I'll try to lighten up!). Thanks for the succinct recommendation .

Brick, I am not yet a good resource for Stage head info - but many here are and there must be information in the gnttype archives. Don't delete your post, I'm not that much of an ogre . I haven't had my unported Stage heads flowed yet. Ported or not, price is inexpensive (~35-60% depending?) compared to aftermarket heads. Aluminum "seems" to be the more common choice among Buick drag racers: weight, repairability...

Edit: thanks '231.

Art

Happy happy joy joy

 

[quickt]

I also have been up in the air with my stage shortblock. What I have found is this. It does not seem to cost much if any more to go with the S2 heads. S2 heads are easy to find most are ported and flow big numbers as is. Most include the rocker assemblys. They seem to cost half of what a ported set of GN1R heads cost. I have also seen the GN1/M&A stock style head guys have problems with gaskets, cracks or what ever. I have known Dave F. for years and he has never cracked a head or even blown a head gasket. I have also seen Dave run 10.0 at 9 psi boost. I wonder what a GN1 head car would run at only 9lb of boost? It seems to me that the stage heads are hurt more by the exhaust housing on the turbo than the down pipe. You take a S2 headed car and add twin turbos and WOW they really shake and bake. I have decided to go with the S2 heads.

 

[JCotton]

I was thinking of sitting back and watching this thread, but it's early and I'm bored. I've used the GN1's, never worked with the S2's, but have a brand new set of castings on the shelf. I don't plan on using them in the near future bcause of 2 reasons, 1. I can't afford the crossover to them and 2. I don't plan on running 7's in the 1\4. Cal, Terry, Jim Burne, to mention a few have proven that 8's are possible with GN1's without the use of S2's. Now if we were to look at the present crop of T88 turboed cars, there is a mix of S2 and GN1's being used. If I'm not mistaken, to date, the GN1's are winning the battle of ET. The GN1 heads aren't cracking, leaking or to my knowledge having any problems. As for the other possible problems, such as, head gaskets, head and or piston melting, well....... lets just say, that can happen to any combo. So from the stand point of power..... forget the flow numbers, the GN1' can make plenty of power as we have all seen. In fact, everytime someone comes out and says, that's it, can't go any faster, Cal steps up to the plate and goes faster~!!!
I find it kind of comical to hear things like running 10.0' on 9lbs, since that is not the measure of performance we are shootting for with these combos. In reallity, ALL the cars have run max boost levels, both S2 and GN1's, who's the fastest? Cal, with GN1's, these are the facts, not theory. Now, lets look at the cost, S2's are cheaper, it seems, but then what does it cost to adapt them, I'll leave that to someone else to share, I know it ain't cheap. One last point I'd like to make, I can work on my motor just as easily as any stock motor, seems to me, working on the S2 headed motors can be less than fun, changing spark plugs can turn into a major job, from what I have been told. Seems to be some clearance issues under the hood as well, but obviously, nothing that can't be dealt with.
Thats about all I have at the moment, no insults intended here, so please don't anyone take anything I said pesonal. I'm just sharing my actual experience, as requested.

 

[quickt]

The room to work on the car is a problem when Dave had A/C on the car he had to remove the motor to replace the pass side exhaust gasket. My thinking on the boost level is this. Once you max out the exhaust housing I dont think it matters what head you have. But until the flow on the exhaust is maxed out the S2 heads seem to make much more power. My thoughts are as new turbos and exhaust wheels and housings come out and flow more we might see an advantage with the S2 heads. I do agree as of right now that is not the case. The cost of going stage 2 heads is not any cheeper but is not that much more I am finding out as I am looking at going that route. There are definately some downsides to the stage heads as far as parts and fitiment problems in the car. Many have had problems with cracking heads as Cal just did a few weeks ago.

 

[HighPSI]

Wow! I don't know how I missed this thread.

Art: You ask for opinions, here's mine. If you are starting from scratch, the cost is very similar. Usually, people do things in steps. This means they already have a good intake, ATR headers, roller cam? (reuse lifters, and stack up, etc..), plenum, throttle body, yada, yada.. All of this can be reused (maybe not the intake) and lower the cost. The Stage2 heads certainly have more power potential, but can you take advantage of that (twin turbo?)? I will agree that they are more durable. The GN-1's were never designed to make 1200+ hp. The biggest problem I have with GN-1 Stage2 motor's is getting intakes (In a lot of classes, sheet metals' aren't allowed). Fortunately, Champion's will be out soon.

Jack: Thanks for the kind words. We have had our diferences, hopefully they are behind us. I hear rumors, you are making some BIG changes. My car is apart getting some improvements (new intercooler, glass hood, and removable wheelie bars). Hope to be ready for a heads up series I run on February 9th. Now, most importantly, what can we do, to get you to run TSO?!?!

Lonnie: Yes I hurt the head, but like I told you earlier, it was my own fault. I have made some changes that "should" eliminate that problem. FWIW: At lower boost levels, mine and Dave's car run very similar times.

Lastly, I am having 10 sets of Stage2 headers made up. They will be similar to ATR's, but without the headaches of the passenger side. They will fit in a car with A/C. The extra room is accomplished by rotating the turbo 90 degrees and having the inlet face forward and the exhaust point backward. They won't be cheap (have already got 6 sets sold), at $1800, but that does include the 4" downpipe.

 

[Kip]

Hi Art, Hope you don't mind me sticking my nose in here. If I were you I would build a stage headed motor as it would be cool to be in the position to be able to run your car in either trim. Also it seems you have a never ending desire to go fastier and the stage heads will leave you open to switching to twins some day if that bug bites you even worse.

Cal, don't forget to mention that the stage headers are also going to come with a new MAF pipe for the $1800.

Hope this helps, Kip

 

[Turbo231]

I'm not trying to start anything but did want to throw out some history.

Stage I
Could be ordered from Buick
Used Production style
Cam
Heads
Intake
Headers


Stage II
Over the counter only
Unique
Cam
Heads
Intake
Headers

So in the days of old a person could order a 455 Stage I powered car or could add
“Bolt on’s” to build a Stage I 455.

To have a Stage II would require building a new motor because the intake system (cam,heads,intake,headers) would only work as a package and was meant for maximum effort race vehicles.

So in my eyes the only “True” Stage II is one with Stage II heads.
To keep true to the car, history and motto (Going fast with class) a pure Stage II motor is the way to go.
If your starting from scratch I think you will see it costs the same or cheaper to run a “real” Stage II.

Headers and DP cost the same.
Easier to put a roller cam in a Stage II and same cost or cheaper.
Better choice of valve train (jesel)
Turbo cost the same
Sheet metal intake cost the same or can run cast converted
Oil pan the same cost or grab one from a salvage yard
Heads are cheaper and flow more

If you were going to build a max effort car the cost of a Stage II would be the same.
If you were just wanting to go faster with what you have the Stage I bolt on route may be for you, cost wise.

 

[Mac in SD]

Art, although I attempt to avoid alliteration - almost always - I am seldom surpassed in succinctness, and surmise that you're satisfied with my submission.

 

[Eticket]

Turbo 231.

I dont' know if "true" to the heritage is what Art was looking for.. Not knocking.. but stage II's weren't built for turbos.. the indy motors were however.

Art,

As you know I'm building a car.. so I qualify to write.. yippee!

I think you should build a S2 headed car. For the simple simple idea that you "should not" have the problems you've had with Champions. Of course, headers are a problem.. but seems like Cal might have an answer.

John

 

[TurboDiverArt]

Originally posted by Eticket
Turbo 231.

I dont' know if "true" to the heritage is what Art was looking for.. Not knocking.. but stage II's weren't built for turbos.. the indy motors were however.

Art,

As you know I'm building a car.. so I qualify to write.. yippee!

I think you should build a S2 headed car. For the simple simple idea that you "should not" have the problems you've had with Champions. Of course, headers are a problem.. but seems like Cal might have an answer.

John

I don't see why headers are such a problem. Am I the only person using Precision headers? They are awesome and without any funky bends like with the ATR’s. Only downside is that they are forward facing so the crossover is in front of the motor. Mine's certainly not a stock setup with the belt routing but I'm sure Harry and crew can make up one that fits. Don't know how well it works or would fit with power steering or the A/C, you'd have to ask Harry. Flow is very smooth although turbo I think should be pushed a little more towards the middle of the motor so you can have a better bent DP. On mine it’s done this way so that it’s a straight shot out of the passenger side header into the turbo. Definitely can't fit a standard downpipe on my setup. Again, I'm sure Harry can make whatever you want.

 

[John Wilde]

Ummm,,

When ever I call they say that they are not making them.
Please post or email me a picture.

Thanks in advance.

 

[summit]

How about a spare car instead of a spare motor? I'll sell my 150+mph Stage 2 headed car for $30k. You can keep my motor and sell your old motor in my chassis and still come out way ahead over trying to convert your car.
Greg Kring

P.S. the short answer?

Given the choice I would build a Stage II headed car for 140+ trap speeds if I had to start from square one since it costs exactly the same and you have greater durability and the greatest room for expansion later. I wouldn't convert a car over from champions unless I also wanted to go with twins or was looking to use a thumper style turbo since the benefits just aren't there when weighed against the cost of conversion. Wait for the TA heads and run the hell out of them.

I say this after having converted my car over myself last year. Do as I say, not as I do! Learn from others mistakes/experiences.

 

[JoyOf6]

I appreciate all the comments, and I'm glad to have at least generated general discussion on the topic. The range of opinions are well-supported. There are enough variables to consider that I arbitrarily restricted this "thought experiment" to application in a single-turbo heavy car. I have no time-table or firm plans other than to keep racing my current car while building an on-center engine. The current off-center engine will remain intact. It's even possible my car (bought new) will keep the current engine as long as its in my possession.

I'm surprised someone hasn't jumped on your car, Greg. The idea you raised would be perfect if I didn't want to keep my engine. Good suggestions about Thumper or twins. Thumper was definitely on my mind all along, twins gaining ground .

I'm very happy with my current combo, not disgusted at all. I know that simply installing a PTE88 with maybe a looser converter would pick it up some, and that's a practical short-term option.

BTW, since this discussion has wavered between the general and the personal, another twist is that I have a hi-mileage stock-blocked GN that now has a complete engine/turbo/IC/tranny/DFI combo from hand-me-down parts from the Stage block car. That presents options, including cutting it up to make a chassis car engine-recipient.

Thanks,

Art