Starting the (re)search... turbo options

[Grand_87_national]

I feel like it's never too early to gather info and educate myself on something I will embark on in the future, so here I am. I've used the search feature with some success as I feel like I'm really narrowing it down to a couple turbos. Next spring I'm planning on a turbo swap, and I'd really like to use a ball bearing example this time. Current mods are on my profile page, but the important stuff would be that it is a studded (main and head), comp 212/212 cammed, ptc 2800 stalled (unconfirmed), e85 car with ported and polished stock heads and stock intake/throttlebody. Currently, it breathes through a turbonetics 62-65 journal bearing 60 series. I'd like something to work with the 2800 stall converter that's in it, and that's where my confusion starts. My understanding of the benefits of a ball bearing setup is that they light faster, obviously reducing lag. So, since they spool so quickly, wouldn't a lower stall speed converter work well? I'm leaning toward either the precision gen 2 cea 6466 or 6266. Now, the car sees plenty of street duty and will make the occasional 1/8th mile pass after everything is ironed out. I think the 6266 would be plenty (and I'm assuming I'd feel a big difference from the turbonetics), however, I'd hate to spend the money and regret not stepping up to the better option to begin with. Bison, Cal, and others have mentioned that the cea 6466 is one of the best turbos available for these cars, and their words are good enough for me. Will it work with a 2800 stall? Some have said they use it with a 3000 and like the results. My goals are to have a reliable 6 second, (1/8th mile, obviously) full weight, street car with functional a/c, etc. Thanks for any insight in advance!

 

[turbocamino1]

What boost levels do you plan to run? IMO...if it where me, i'd forgo the BB plan..save that cash and put it in a good converter...which,dollar for dollar, is the best money i've spent... the difference in a, "ok" converter and a "really good" converter is remarkable....most noticeable is how it couples at shift points at WOT. Huge difference. My Precision billet wheel 6265 ,now,a 6266,is all in (26,28 or 30 Lbs). in about .8 of a second ...about the time it takes to blink. The tires hardly stand a chance.

 

[Grand_87_national]

What boost levels do you plan to run? IMO...if it where me, i'd forgo the BB plan..save that cash and put it in a good converter...which,dollar for dollar, is the best money i've spent... the difference in a, "ok" converter and a "really good" converter is remarkable....most noticeable is how it couples at shift points at WOT. Huge difference. My Precision billet wheel 6265 ,now,a 6266,is all in (26,28 or 30 Lbs). in about .8 of a second ...about the time it takes to blink. The tires hardly stand a chance.

Thanks for the info! It just seems like there's more to be had than I get with this turbo. I can run it from 22 psi to 25 psi, and I really don't feel a difference, typically in the 10.5 afr range, give or take. According to the website, the 60 series Turbonetics likes to be at 22psi or below, so it makes sense. Maybe I'll do them at the same time...

 

[Grand_87_national]

What would be an example of a "really good" converter?

 

[turbocamino1]

I'm with u 100% ..there are bettr turbos to be had at your level. Check the Precision line from one of our listed vendors, "Full Throttle Speed" shows several choices in a journal bearing. Regarding converters... the PTC our board rep, Dusty spect for me is great...slip is down to 4-5% now. Also ,you cant ignore the converter Dave Husek sells or a Pro-torque.. all have great reviews.

 

[achalmersman]

I have a Gen 2 6266 with a .63 housing and although I like the turbo and think it does well I will be purchasing my next turbo from Bison and most likely skip the expensive BB option that isnt necessary with the right converter.

Sent from my VS990 using Tapatalk

 

[Grand_87_national]

I have a Gen 2 6266 with a .63 housing and although I like the turbo and think it does well I will be purchasing my next turbo from Bison and most likely skip the expensive BB option that isnt necessary with the right converter.

Sent from my VS990 using Tapatalk

So, if I'm understanding correctly... the BB turbos are more forgiving as far as converter choice goes. But let me ask this: since my car is 99% street/ highway use, would I benefit from a tighter converter and a BB turbo, vs. a loose converter and a JB turbo? Tbh, I had a 3800 stall in my ls1 camaro, and the "loose" feel on the highway drove me nuts, though they do a great job getting the revs up.

 

[Grand_87_national]

I have a Gen 2 6266 with a .63 housing and although I like the turbo and think it does well I will be purchasing my next turbo from Bison and most likely skip the expensive BB option that isnt necessary with the right converter.

Sent from my VS990 using Tapatalk

Also, if you're planning on selling that 6266 sometime around next spring... I'd love to have a chance to buy it.

 

[achalmersman]

Not planning to sell yet as I havent pushed it to its limit yet . As far as street use its going to be an opinionated response regarding how loose you want it. A really hot street converter may be great red light to red light but give up some at the track. The amount of compromise should lessen the more money you spend on the converter. The higher end converters go for 1k. Bison, David Husek, and Dusty Bradford would be the people I would be asking if I were in the market for a turbo / converter combo all 3 are here on the forum.

Sent from my VS990 using Tapatalk

 

[Grand_87_national]

Not planning to sell yet. As far as street use its going to be an opinionated response regarding how loose you want it. A really hot street converter may be great red light to red light but give up some at the track. The amount of compromise should lessen the more money you spend on the converter. The higher end converters go for 1k. Bison, David Husek, and Dusty Bradford would be the people I would be asking if I were in the market for a turbo / converter combo all 3 are here on the forum.

Sent from my VS990 using Tapatalk

What converter do you use?

 

[Mr.Spool]

My goals are to have a reliable 6 second, (1/8th mile, obviously) full weight, street car with functional a/c, etc. Thanks for any insight in advance!

why not max out what you have now?if that's a cast 62/65 although its not even in my top 10 turbo list it will sneak in to the 6s,you have to turn it up.

 

[achalmersman]

I have a PTC 17 blade non lockup. Its nice on the street but a little too loose on the track for me probably because im pushing high boost and low (relatively) rpm. I'm hoping this converter will be just right when I install my ported heads and roller cam and is used at a higher rpm range.

Sent from my VS990 using Tapatalk

 

[Grand_87_national]

why not max out what you have now?if that's a cast 62/65 although its not even in my top 10 turbo list it will sneak in to the 6s,you have to turn it up.

I haven't been to the track, yet. Son has football practice evenings, so I really can't get out there this fall. Having said that, this turbo just doesn't like to be pushed, and I even did some research to find out what I'm missing. Took a visit to the Turbonetics webpage and read about the 60 series, where they specifically stated "to be used in applications under 22 psi". And like clockwork, that's where it seems to run out of breath. I just can't feel any difference and the tires even seem to spin/ hook the same @ 22 psi vs 25 psi. So, I'm not too sure what I can do to overcome the limits of the turbo (without swapping it, of course). So, admittedly, I'm going by "seat-o-pants meter", but my inclination is that it's just not there. I had a ms4 cammed ls1 camaro at the track last year, and turned a best of 7.68 @ 90 mph. My gn feels a tick quicker, but not a lot. Maybe sub 7.50's. Again, all just guesses at this point, but I do feel like this turbo holds the car back from it's true potential.

 

[Grand_87_national]

I did send them the serial number and confirmed that it is a 62-1 compressor / 65 turbine journal bearing, .63 a/r. I also know that it was purchased used by the previous owner of my car, so it may have quite a few miles on it, and I probably need to go ahead and check for shaft play, or any other wear.

 

[Reggie West]

Ok well here is some contrarian thinking for you.

The ball bearing turbos are better than a journal bearing turbo is period. I have been very happy with Comp turbo and have used 4 of them. I run a 4 bolt 70 mm triple ball bearing unit on my car with an Art Carr 3600 non lock converter. You can tell there is a higher stall speed converter in it but the turbo is super quick. Ask USMC Turbo6 here I gave him a ride in it.

We used a 3 bolt triple ball bearing with a 71 GTQ compressor in my Dads GN. That has a 3000 rpm stall in it, similar to yours in stall speed, and that is by far the quickest spooling turbo I have driven in any Buick. It is not instantaneous like the newer twin turbo cars are but it is pretty close. You can hear and see the turbo making boost at part throttle tip in at 50 mph cruising at 2000 rpms.

The 4 bolt housings flow better on the top end and these days there are no downsides to them in terms of response on the street or longevity. You can go with a 3 bolt just as well so you dont have to change downpipe flanges and so on. You have a good combo that will handle the power so you can't go wrong.

I do know that the Comp turbos spool not only quicker but faster in terms of rpms on the shaft. That is power.

The converter you have is pretty good and it will work well with anything around a 60 series turbo.

I would look at what Comp has to offer if nothing else. They will probably recommend a triple ball bearing 5857 for your car and they work well.

The points made about converters are valid as well. Keep this in mind, the faster you want to go the less of a street car it is and more like a race car it becomes. Typical Buick guy right??

 

[Grand_87_national]

Great info, Reggie! Comp turbos are one I've ran into, (I believs on gn1performance.com) and they seemed to run about the same price as the precision, but I had very little info on, so I simply passed by. Good to know you're happy with it. Would a smaller 5857 really pull that much harder than my 6265 on the big end? Obviously, the spool would be instant, but I'm also trying to speed the car up as well. Thanks!

 

[Jerryl]

If I have to guess. . . .
The reason it is not picking up power at the *wheels* is because it is blowing through the converter.

Bison went 9.8x with one of his 6265 turbos and a 9.5 PTC.

Point is: A $3k, 8 bolt centennial ball bearing turbo, 40 lb boost or added torque *may* not show up at the tire. Lol.

 

[Mr.Spool]

I just can't feel any difference and the tires even seem to spin/ hook the same @ 22 psi vs 25 psi

look at fuel consumption,does it use more fuel at 25psi vs 22psi?does that flash the converter higher?these are the things to look at so your not just throwing parts at the car.logging and seeing whats happening is a usefull approach.i doubt very highly you are maxing the turbo out at 22psi,since its a 600+hp capable turbo.

 

[Grand_87_national]

look at fuel consumption,does it use more fuel at 25psi vs 22psi?does that flash the converter higher?these are the things to look at so your not just throwing parts at the car.logging and seeing whats happening is a usefull approach.i doubt very highly you are maxing the turbo out at 22psi,since its a 600+hp capable turbo.

Good call. I can remember going to 25 psi without adding any fuel through the scanmaster, typically sits at about 10.5ish on my wideband regardless, but it does move a bit, so perhaps it's 10.5-10.7 at 25 psi, where it may be 10.3-10.5 at 22 psi, but I know it's not a huge difference. Now, I have turned it down to 20 psi for cruising around before, and did notice that the readings get more rich at that point (about 10.1). But, since it's safe and I don't plan on running it hard (unless I meet a camaro ss at a stoplight like last week ) I don't take any fuel out, and it still pulls pretty hard. Perhaps the converter is the problem? I don't know, or even have a confirmation on what it is for sure, rather, just what the p.o. told me was in it, but everything else he has told me has been accurate so I have no reason to doubt it. If it is in fact, a ptc 2800 stall (not sure what size that would be 10.5"?) is this a converter known for holding back potential power? Also, the website says 300-600 hp on this turbo, but wouldn't the 600 hp be the extreme of a larger displacement engine? I mean, it's not a turbo buick specific turbo (the 60 series Turbonetics in general) so, one is probably not going to expect 600 fwhp from a 3.8 liter v6 but maybe more towards the middle of that spectrum.... or am I over-thinking that? Thanks for the info!

 

[Pronto]

Before you even get thinking of a different turbo or converter get a Powerlogger and fuel transducer. From that hard data you can make better decisions.