Steve Wood
Active Member
- Joined
- Jul 18, 2001
I am undoubtedly stupid...the fact that I am bothering to try to help you may well be proof of that. 
You really need to stop and figure out what creates horsepower. It is cylinder pressure. Surely you can grasp the concept that a given horsepower is required to move a certain mass a certain speed over a certain distance.
There is no free lunch. It is not boost that distorts the block, it is a combination of cylinder pressure and rpm. If your thinking was correct, you would be buying a PTE88 and running 10# of boost.
The combination you are advocating will be a slushy dog that is no fun to drive. And worse than that, the turbo will be less efficient at that low boost than would be a stock turbo.
You really need to stop and figure out what creates horsepower. It is cylinder pressure. Surely you can grasp the concept that a given horsepower is required to move a certain mass a certain speed over a certain distance.
There is no free lunch. It is not boost that distorts the block, it is a combination of cylinder pressure and rpm. If your thinking was correct, you would be buying a PTE88 and running 10# of boost.
The combination you are advocating will be a slushy dog that is no fun to drive. And worse than that, the turbo will be less efficient at that low boost than would be a stock turbo.
K
KwikerSilver
Guest
LISTEN CAREFULLY, the block flexes at 20 and above pounds of boost. No matter what turbo, capisce? Maybe i just want to have a huge turbo under my hood, maybe i want to "waste my money" what does it matter to you, can you not tell that this is what i want to do. I appreciate you guys trying to help me out and save me some money, that is one thing that i usually love about the Buick guys, but now it is annoying, i really want to thank you guys for trying to help me out, but this is what i want to do, please just let me do it. The way that i am thinking is, i can run faster on pump gas if i have a bigger turbo that flows more cfm at 16lbs than the smaller does at 20<which would probably require race gas. I don't know, i just feel safer at lower boost. I am sorry, i know i am being an *******, but this is what i want to do. Really, thanks a lot for trying to help me save some bucks. And thank you guys for helping me out about the confusion i had between the two turbos, let me make sure i know, the 45a is bigger than the 63-1 right? I understand that the 45a has a bigger wheel and a bigger housing(both on the compressor side), is this correct. The 45a looks bigger on the outside and the inside is bigger, the 45a has a 66mm wheel and the 63-1 has a 63mm wheel. Am i right about all of this, hope it isnt confusing, thanks again guys.
Nicholas
Nicholas
K
KwikerSilver
Guest
Originally posted by Steve Wood
I am undoubtedly stupid...the fact that I am bothering to try to help you may well be proof of that.
You really need to stop and figure out what creates horsepower. It is cylinder pressure. Surely you can grasp the concept that a given horsepower is required to move a certain mass a certain speed over a certain distance.
There is no free lunch. It is not boost that distorts the block, it is a combination of cylinder pressure and rpm. If your thinking was correct, you would be buying a PTE88 and running 10# of boost.
The combination you are advocating will be a slushy dog that is no fun to drive. And worse than that, the turbo will be less efficient at that low boost than would be a stock turbo.
I dont understand how the stock is going to make more power at 16 than the 45a would
K
KwikerSilver
Guest
Originally posted by Quick6
Now if you have a "Power Plate" well then that changes everything, handling will improve, seat of the pants thrill is Improved and you won't run over your crank...
I am not a child, you don't have to talk to me like i drive a honda. You must think that if you put a red R on the back of your civic it magically makes it faster than a ZO6. And if you get one that is backwards, then you can walk street bikes.
Nicholas
The amount of boost you were running did NOT cause the block to flex!!!! There is a guy down here that runs 35lbs of boost on a bone stock bottom end with the stock caps and all and he has many 10 second passes with no problems, so like somebody mentioned before you had major problems! 16lbs of boost is NOT much different from 20lbs, so I don't understand your reasoning at all I myself have a TE44 turbo and I have an SMC alky kit and run 22lbs of boost with pump gas on a daily basis as do many guys on this BB and I have the stock caps and bottom end with over 100,000 miles like many others so obviously you had something wrong with your motor that caused the block to break, but it was not the amount of boost you were running that caused it cause frankly 23lbs isn't that much boost for a stock bottom end 3.8 at all!!! Now go ahead and tell me I'm stupid I'm done talking to a brick wall!!!
I myself have a TE44 turbo and I have an SMC alky kit and run 22lbs of boost with pump gas on a daily basis as do many guys on this BB and I have the stock caps and bottom end with over 100,000 miles like many others so obviously you had something wrong with your motor that caused the block to break, but it was not the amount of boost you were running that caused it cause frankly 23lbs isn't that much boost for a stock bottom end 3.8 at all!!! Now go ahead and tell me I'm stupid I'm done talking to a brick wall!!!BillyBoost
New Member
- Joined
- Dec 29, 2001
If 20# is the magic number that flexs block, then there would be no turbo blocks left. I guess 20# on a stock turbo is equal to 20#on a te45?????
You may not be a child but you are extremely simple minded.
You may not be a child but you are extremely simple minded.
K
KwikerSilver
Guest
MY combo is as follows; Stock motor, 4 billet caps, head studs, rod bolts, tta pistons, tta crank, ported and polished heads with big valves, billet roller webber 206-206, t&d roller rockers, 70mm tb and plen and powerplate with the handling package, 55# injectors, 340 pump hotwired, v2 front mount, atr headers, racegate on mease 3 inch dp, atr 2 1/2 exh, and i am trying to decide what turbo, 45a, 63-1, 66-1, i am not sure yet.
Nicholas
Nicholas
Steve Wood
Active Member
- Joined
- Jul 18, 2001
You have to look at the compressor curves for the efficient boost zones...the bigger the turbo, in general, the higher the boost with regard to efficiency. The smaller turbo will spool more quickly at lower boost than will the larger one.
I have three cars...a GN, a T, and and an Elky.
The GN has a 45, a front mount, roller cam, ported heads, 3800 stall converter, 75# injectors.
My son's T has a 44, oem IC, stock cam, ported heads, 2800 converter, 50# injectors.
Both have alcohol.
At 16# of boost, my car is slow to spool relatively speaking and his is instaneous...if we go against each other, he is gone while mine takes a second to wind up against the converter and take after him. His car is a lot more fun to drive.
At 23# of boost on alky...I am flowing a lot more air at 23# because of the cam, and the front mount....plus my turbo is finally getting into an efficient area of operation....it ain't no contest.
Remember that boost is the pressure it takes to push air into the engine. It does not necessaryily relate to volume, tho. Stock heads are a bottleneck and when you run 16# of boost, it is not as much air going into the engine as there would be with a set of well ported heads at 16#. The ported heads would be passing more volume and the volume of air forced into the cylinder is where the cylinder pressure comes from.
It's kinda like a water hose. If you put your thumb over the end of the hose and squirt it, the water may be going faster or harder, but less water is coming out all the same. What counts is the total amount that comes out, not the pressure behind it in our case.
Where is JOhn Estill when you need him? He explains much better.
I have three cars...a GN, a T, and and an Elky.
The GN has a 45, a front mount, roller cam, ported heads, 3800 stall converter, 75# injectors.
My son's T has a 44, oem IC, stock cam, ported heads, 2800 converter, 50# injectors.
Both have alcohol.
At 16# of boost, my car is slow to spool relatively speaking and his is instaneous...if we go against each other, he is gone while mine takes a second to wind up against the converter and take after him. His car is a lot more fun to drive.
At 23# of boost on alky...I am flowing a lot more air at 23# because of the cam, and the front mount....plus my turbo is finally getting into an efficient area of operation....it ain't no contest.
Remember that boost is the pressure it takes to push air into the engine. It does not necessaryily relate to volume, tho. Stock heads are a bottleneck and when you run 16# of boost, it is not as much air going into the engine as there would be with a set of well ported heads at 16#. The ported heads would be passing more volume and the volume of air forced into the cylinder is where the cylinder pressure comes from.
It's kinda like a water hose. If you put your thumb over the end of the hose and squirt it, the water may be going faster or harder, but less water is coming out all the same. What counts is the total amount that comes out, not the pressure behind it in our case.
Where is JOhn Estill when you need him? He explains much better.
"I am not a child, you don't have to talk to me like i drive a honda. You must think that if you put a red R on the back of your civic it magically makes it faster than a ZO6. And if you get one that is backwards, then you can walk street bikes.
Nicholas"
Hell, if you drove a honda then this whole discussion would make sense, whats scary about it is the fact you own a TR
Nicholas"
Hell, if you drove a honda then this whole discussion would make sense, whats scary about it is the fact you own a TR
Steve Wood
Active Member
- Joined
- Jul 18, 2001
and with regard to efficiency, the smaller turbo will spool quicker but will also start heating air excessively at lower boost. The stock turbo does not seem to make more power at 27# than it does at about 22#. Whereas the Te 44 really makes a lot of power up around 25#. I notice the 45 is just starting to really act like it is making power about 23#...it is not weak at 20#, it is that the power is not linear...it really jumps up at higher boost.
K
KwikerSilver
Guest
now that i think about it, i understand, someone told me that 20lbs makes the block flex, so i thought 20lbs on any turbo would make this happen, i wasn't thinking about it.
Nicholas
Nicholas
K
KwikerSilver
Guest
That is what i am trying to do, this all started because i was wondering which turbo was bigger, then i told someone i will probably only run 16psi, since i have to drive this car everyday, and i was thinking that i could make the same power with less boost and it would be safer, but now i understand that i can't. O well, i still want a big turbo.
Nicholas
Steve Wood
Active Member
- Joined
- Jul 18, 2001
Rather than think of boost, think of horsepower. These blocks get into the danger zone somewhere around 530-540 hp. That is probably some opinion and some fact. If you add a girdle, I would guess that you might approach closer to 600 hp. I don't think to much of steel caps but some do....
Now, the other thing that is dangerous is that the cranks are not well supported in these things as noted by the need for a girdle, but rpm is a major factor in crank flex. Again, like so many things rpm is not a linear function with regard to force. Lot's of people believe that once you pass 5400 rpm, you are running on luck. Those of us that twist them to 6000 when we are serious about it are the guys that are prime candidates for the TAPerformance new block. You take a lot of cylinder pressure and add a little crank flex from too much rpm and you have just applied for membership to the DOTCC. It is not a question of being admitted but only how long the wait is....
If you add a girdle, I would guess that you might approach closer to 600 hp. I don't think to much of steel caps but some do....Now, the other thing that is dangerous is that the cranks are not well supported in these things as noted by the need for a girdle, but rpm is a major factor in crank flex. Again, like so many things rpm is not a linear function with regard to force. Lot's of people believe that once you pass 5400 rpm, you are running on luck. Those of us that twist them to 6000 when we are serious about it are the guys that are prime candidates for the TAPerformance new block. You take a lot of cylinder pressure and add a little crank flex from too much rpm and you have just applied for membership to the DOTCC. It is not a question of being admitted but only how long the wait is....
Steve Wood
Active Member
- Joined
- Jul 18, 2001
One other point as I don't think well when I am writing.
The bigger the turbo, the higher the stall required. This tends to push you into a higher rpm range which causes the problem I noted in the last post...crank flex and greatly increased reciprocating forces on the crank and rods....not a pretty picture and the reason some of the serious guys go for a stage block.
The bigger the turbo, the higher the stall required. This tends to push you into a higher rpm range which causes the problem I noted in the last post...crank flex and greatly increased reciprocating forces on the crank and rods....not a pretty picture and the reason some of the serious guys go for a stage block.
K
KwikerSilver
Guest
OK guys, i am sorry for being so ignorant, i really do think i know it all about Buicks since i have been around them since 1987 when my dad bought his first one, but i just realized that i don't know everything, sorry for being such an azzhole about it. Anywho, out of the list, which one should i buy if i want to go the fastest, running 26 lbs or something like that, i am just going to make this a strip car. TE-45a, TE-63-1, or Te-66-1 Which one is the best? Thanks again for the help, sorry for my ignorance.
Nicholas
Nicholas
Quickturbosix
High on PSI
- Joined
- Jun 18, 2001
Hey Steve do you have a map of the 45? I just talked to John Craig about this last week. I think the 45 would be in the surge zone at 16psi. The 63 might work out better, depends on its map. But being smaller then the 45 the surge zone should be lower.
Is this the correct thinking???/
Still trying to figure this tr stuff out...2 GN's later
Is this the correct thinking???/
Still trying to figure this tr stuff out...2 GN's later
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