"The Passion" Open Mind View
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Perhaps, Gasketman, you are mistaking Christian behaviour for that demonstrated by a couple of people here that flaunt their beliefs by attacking those that do not agree with them?
That might be a bit misleading. Adolf Hitler made it point to talk about his Lord and Savior throughout his speeches in an effort to explain his tirades against the Jews. Even the Pope of the time acknowledged him.
Somehow, I always have a great difficulty in believing that such people will find their way to Heaven even if they believe that Christ gave his life so that they might find eternal life. The fact that he killed 6 million jews and 20 million Russians, not to count the Poles allies, etc. would seem immaterial, but, not to me.
When I hear the claims and read the aspersions cast by those that claim they speak for the Lord, I have grave difficulty in matching them to the words written in the Bible. Lot's of stone chucking going on, including my own words. Judge not....
That might be a bit misleading. Adolf Hitler made it point to talk about his Lord and Savior throughout his speeches in an effort to explain his tirades against the Jews. Even the Pope of the time acknowledged him.
Somehow, I always have a great difficulty in believing that such people will find their way to Heaven even if they believe that Christ gave his life so that they might find eternal life. The fact that he killed 6 million jews and 20 million Russians, not to count the Poles allies, etc. would seem immaterial, but, not to me.
When I hear the claims and read the aspersions cast by those that claim they speak for the Lord, I have grave difficulty in matching them to the words written in the Bible. Lot's of stone chucking going on, including my own words. Judge not....
The movie...
I'm really looking forward to seeing the movie and hope to do so very soon.
As far as disagreements here - while I am troubled by those that state they are atheists or otherwise non-Christian, it is only because I feel they are still searching deep down inside.
And just because they may disagree with my views and I with theirs, I will defend their right to express their opinion and I would hope they would do the same for me.
I applaud Gasketman for having toned down the earlier rhetoric and for his willingness to consider the opposing view as well as defend his position in a civil and mature manner.
Out of good debate, wisdom for all may come - if we allow it.
I'm really looking forward to seeing the movie and hope to do so very soon.
As far as disagreements here - while I am troubled by those that state they are atheists or otherwise non-Christian, it is only because I feel they are still searching deep down inside.
And just because they may disagree with my views and I with theirs, I will defend their right to express their opinion and I would hope they would do the same for me.
I applaud Gasketman for having toned down the earlier rhetoric and for his willingness to consider the opposing view as well as defend his position in a civil and mature manner.
Out of good debate, wisdom for all may come - if we allow it.
PhilthMonger
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regardless of what anyone believes, this is just a movie based on a historical incident. Its about a man who was brutally crucified. wether or not you believe he was the son of god or whatever is irrelevant. Jesus was a man who lived in that time that was executed, and this is a movie based on a historical event. It's probably alot more realistic than Pearl Harbor or Titanic was, at least they didn't cast Affleck as Jesus 
Originally posted by PhilthMonger
regardless of what anyone believes, this is just a movie based on a historical incident. Its about a man who was brutally crucified. wether or not you believe he was the son of god or whatever is irrelevant. Jesus was a man who lived in that time that was executed, and this is a movie based on a historical event. It's probably alot more realistic than Pearl Harbor or Titanic was, at least they didn't cast Affleck as Jesus
I agree totally. Since you brought up the Pearl Harbor movie. My father was stationed there during the attack. He still has 3 friend alive that was there with him. All 4 of them have different accounts of what happened and still being on the same ship in the harbor. They all do agree it was a nice movie but they got it all wrong. This was first hand experience.
Are you sure on those numbers?
This figure was reported in The New York Times on March 3, 1991 and was based entirely on the wartime German concentration camp records that had been captured by the Soviets and just recently released. According to this figure, of those dead, 38,031 were Jews. These records state that the total of all persons who died in the ENTIRE German prison camp system from 1935 to 1945 were 403,713. To repeat: a total of 403,713 persons of all races and religions was officially recorded to have died (of all causes. typhus, old age, measles, etc.-and execution) in the entire prison camp system over a 10 year period. Of those 403,713 a total of 73,137 died at Auschwitz. Of those 73,137 who died at Auschwitz, 38,031 were Jews.
Pronto
No amount of evidence will ever persuade an idiot.
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My uncle was one of the American liberators at a concentration camp. He bulldozed bodies of hundreds of Jews into pits. 400,000 or 6 million, it was disgusting what the Nazi's did to the Jews and other people. Only the lord can forgive them for it.
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To get back to the theme of this thread, here is a view that was sent to me that I would like to share. It is long but makes up for it in quality. Enjoy [or not?]
"Paul Harvey Comments on "The Passion" by Mel Gibson
Paul Harvey's words:
I really did not know what to expect. I was thrilled to have been invited to a private viewing of Mel Gibson's film "The Passion," but I had also read all the cautious articles and spin. I grew up in a Jewish town and owe much of my own faith journey to the influence. I have a life long, deeply held aversion to anything that might even indirectly encourage any form of anti-Semitic thought, language or actions.
I arrived at the private viewing for "The Passion," held in Washington, DC and greeted some familiar faces. The environment was typically Washingtonian, with people greeting you with a smile but seeming to look beyond you, having an agenda beyond the words. The film was very briefly introduced, without fanfare, and then the room darkened. From the gripping opening scene in the Garden of Gethsemane, to the very human and tender portrayal of the earthly ministry of Jesus, through the betrayal, the arrest, the scourging, the way of the cross, the encounter with the thieves, the surrender on the Cross, until the final scene in the empty tomb, this was not simply a movie; it was an encounter, unlike anything I have ever experienced.
In addition to being a masterpiece of film-making and an artistic triumph, "The Passion" evoked more deep reflection, sorrow and emotional reaction within me than anything since my wedding, my ordination or the birth of my children. Frankly, I will never be the same. When the film concluded, this "invitation only" gathering of "movers and shakers" in Washington, DC were shaking indeed, but this time from sobbing. I am not sure there was a dry eye in the place. The crowd that had been glad-handing before the film was now eerily silent. No one could speak because words were woefully inadequate. We had experienced a kind of art that is a rarity in life, the kind that makes heaven touch earth.
One scene in the film has now been forever etched in my mind. A brutalized, wounded Jesus was soon to fall again under the weight of the cross. His mother had made her way along the Via Della Rosa. As she ran to him, she flashed back to a memory of Jesus as a child, falling in the dirt road outside of their home. Just as she reached to protect him from the fall, she was now reaching to touch his wounded adult face. Jesus looked at her with intensely probing and passionately loving eyes (and at all of us through the screen) and said "Behold I make all things new." These are words taken from the last Book of the New Testament, the Book of Revelations. Suddenly, the purpose of the pain was so clear and the wounds, that earlier in the film had been so difficult to see in His face, His back, indeed all over His body, became intensely beautiful. They had been borne voluntarily for love.
At the end of the film, after we had all had a chance to recover, a question and answer period ensued. The unanimous praise for the film, from a rather diverse crowd, was as astounding as the compliments were effusive. The questions included the one question that seems to follow this film, even though it has not yet even been released. "Why is this film considered by some to be 'anti-Semitic?" Frankly, having now experienced (you do not "view" this film) "the Passion" it is a question that is impossible to answer. A law professor whom I admire sat in front of me. He raised his hand and responded "After watching this film, I do not understand how anyone can insinuate that it even remotely presents that the Jews killed Jesus. It doesn't." He continued "It made me realize that my sins killed Jesus" I agree. There is not a scintilla of anti-Semitism to be found anywhere in this powerful film. If there were, I would be among the first to decry it. It faithfully tells the Gospel story in a dramatically beautiful, sensitive and profoundly engaging way. Those who are alleging otherwise have either not seen the film or have another agenda behind their protestations. This is not a "Christian" film, in the sense that it will appeal only to those who identify themselves as followers of Jesus Christ. It is a deeply human, beautiful story that will deeply touch all men and women. It is a profound work of art. Yes, its producer is a Catholic Christian and thankfully has remained faithful to the Gospel text; if that is no longer acceptable behavior then we are all in trouble. History demands that we remain faithful to the story and Christians have a right to tell it. After all, we believe that it is the greatest story ever told and that its message is for all men and women. The greatest right is the right to hear the truth.
We would all be well advised to remember that the Gospel narratives to which "The Passion" is so faithful were written by Jewish men who followed a Jewish Rabbi whose life and teaching have forever changed the history of the world. The problem is not the message but those who have distorted it and used it for hate rather than love. The solution is not to censor the message, but rather to promote the kind of gift of love that is Mel Gibson's filmmaking masterpiece, "The Passion." It should be seen by as many people as possible. I intend to do everything I can to make sure that is the case. I am passionate about "The Passion."
P.S. From Julie: My daughter, Kristin, tells me they learned at her church Youth Group that Mel Gilbson stated he did not appear in his own movie, by his choice, with one exception: It is Gibson's hands seen nailing Jesus to the cross. Gibson said he wanted to do that because it was indeed his own hands that nailed Jesus to the cross (along with all of ours.) "
"Paul Harvey Comments on "The Passion" by Mel Gibson
Paul Harvey's words:
I really did not know what to expect. I was thrilled to have been invited to a private viewing of Mel Gibson's film "The Passion," but I had also read all the cautious articles and spin. I grew up in a Jewish town and owe much of my own faith journey to the influence. I have a life long, deeply held aversion to anything that might even indirectly encourage any form of anti-Semitic thought, language or actions.
I arrived at the private viewing for "The Passion," held in Washington, DC and greeted some familiar faces. The environment was typically Washingtonian, with people greeting you with a smile but seeming to look beyond you, having an agenda beyond the words. The film was very briefly introduced, without fanfare, and then the room darkened. From the gripping opening scene in the Garden of Gethsemane, to the very human and tender portrayal of the earthly ministry of Jesus, through the betrayal, the arrest, the scourging, the way of the cross, the encounter with the thieves, the surrender on the Cross, until the final scene in the empty tomb, this was not simply a movie; it was an encounter, unlike anything I have ever experienced.
In addition to being a masterpiece of film-making and an artistic triumph, "The Passion" evoked more deep reflection, sorrow and emotional reaction within me than anything since my wedding, my ordination or the birth of my children. Frankly, I will never be the same. When the film concluded, this "invitation only" gathering of "movers and shakers" in Washington, DC were shaking indeed, but this time from sobbing. I am not sure there was a dry eye in the place. The crowd that had been glad-handing before the film was now eerily silent. No one could speak because words were woefully inadequate. We had experienced a kind of art that is a rarity in life, the kind that makes heaven touch earth.
One scene in the film has now been forever etched in my mind. A brutalized, wounded Jesus was soon to fall again under the weight of the cross. His mother had made her way along the Via Della Rosa. As she ran to him, she flashed back to a memory of Jesus as a child, falling in the dirt road outside of their home. Just as she reached to protect him from the fall, she was now reaching to touch his wounded adult face. Jesus looked at her with intensely probing and passionately loving eyes (and at all of us through the screen) and said "Behold I make all things new." These are words taken from the last Book of the New Testament, the Book of Revelations. Suddenly, the purpose of the pain was so clear and the wounds, that earlier in the film had been so difficult to see in His face, His back, indeed all over His body, became intensely beautiful. They had been borne voluntarily for love.
At the end of the film, after we had all had a chance to recover, a question and answer period ensued. The unanimous praise for the film, from a rather diverse crowd, was as astounding as the compliments were effusive. The questions included the one question that seems to follow this film, even though it has not yet even been released. "Why is this film considered by some to be 'anti-Semitic?" Frankly, having now experienced (you do not "view" this film) "the Passion" it is a question that is impossible to answer. A law professor whom I admire sat in front of me. He raised his hand and responded "After watching this film, I do not understand how anyone can insinuate that it even remotely presents that the Jews killed Jesus. It doesn't." He continued "It made me realize that my sins killed Jesus" I agree. There is not a scintilla of anti-Semitism to be found anywhere in this powerful film. If there were, I would be among the first to decry it. It faithfully tells the Gospel story in a dramatically beautiful, sensitive and profoundly engaging way. Those who are alleging otherwise have either not seen the film or have another agenda behind their protestations. This is not a "Christian" film, in the sense that it will appeal only to those who identify themselves as followers of Jesus Christ. It is a deeply human, beautiful story that will deeply touch all men and women. It is a profound work of art. Yes, its producer is a Catholic Christian and thankfully has remained faithful to the Gospel text; if that is no longer acceptable behavior then we are all in trouble. History demands that we remain faithful to the story and Christians have a right to tell it. After all, we believe that it is the greatest story ever told and that its message is for all men and women. The greatest right is the right to hear the truth.
We would all be well advised to remember that the Gospel narratives to which "The Passion" is so faithful were written by Jewish men who followed a Jewish Rabbi whose life and teaching have forever changed the history of the world. The problem is not the message but those who have distorted it and used it for hate rather than love. The solution is not to censor the message, but rather to promote the kind of gift of love that is Mel Gibson's filmmaking masterpiece, "The Passion." It should be seen by as many people as possible. I intend to do everything I can to make sure that is the case. I am passionate about "The Passion."
P.S. From Julie: My daughter, Kristin, tells me they learned at her church Youth Group that Mel Gilbson stated he did not appear in his own movie, by his choice, with one exception: It is Gibson's hands seen nailing Jesus to the cross. Gibson said he wanted to do that because it was indeed his own hands that nailed Jesus to the cross (along with all of ours.) "
badboy86gn2
"lord be with me"
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LET THE TRUTH BE KNOWN
No...I would like a link to the actual New York Times article. You know, the one that doesn't have a White supremisist twist on it.
As for the truth, none of you were there. Everyone that knows the actual truth is dead. Its a movie. Enjoy it for what it is.
As for the truth, none of you were there. Everyone that knows the actual truth is dead. Its a movie. Enjoy it for what it is.
Geezzzzzzzzzz
The Neo-Nazis will continue to try to rewrite history forever, I suspect. Mel Gibson's father probably gets his facts from the same source. He seems to think they are all alive and living in New York.
The numbers were compiled from those that existed before the war, were taken away, and never seen again.
But, assuming that only 38,000 were actually executed and the rest were taken away by an UFO, I still would not feel too good to see him in Heaven.
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It seems like religious and "gay" threads attract LOTS of differing opinions and provoke many into posting what they would not normally say to friends in a debate.
Some may not think so, but I believe we have been very lienent in what we allow to be voiced. When I first saw the thread and the way it was presented, I felt it was going to be a "friendly" review of a movie. Now we are into WW2, WTC and other off-topic, sub-topics.
PLEASE, let's stop and get back to the "Open Mind View" of the movie, or start your own thread/discussion of your own private agenda.
Some may not think so, but I believe we have been very lienent in what we allow to be voiced. When I first saw the thread and the way it was presented, I felt it was going to be a "friendly" review of a movie. Now we are into WW2, WTC and other off-topic, sub-topics.
PLEASE, let's stop and get back to the "Open Mind View" of the movie, or start your own thread/discussion of your own private agenda.
I agree Nick..
I thought this was a fair review and account of the movie in there eyes.
For two long hours, the rabbi, the priest and the preacher sat in a half-empty theater Wednesday afternoon and watched Jesus get arrested, chained, tossed off a bridge, beaten to a bloody pulp and nailed to the cross.
Two thumbs way down, one thumb up, leaning to the right.
Those were the interfaith reviews after Rabbi Stephen Pearce, the Rev. Rob McCann and the Rev. P.T. Mammen attended the first public showing in San Francisco of "The Passion of the Christ," Mel Gibson's controversial movie about the trial and crucifixion of Jesus.
After the movie, the three clergymen sat in what passes for a quiet corner of the Metreon, speaking over the roar of car crashes and gunfire coming from the video-game arcade.
As blank-eyed teenagers played Need for Speed and Deer Hunting USA, these three men of God tried to make sense of the ancient violence they had just witnessed on the wide screen.
"It was the quintessential torture of a Jew,'' said Rabbi Pearce, speaking of his own viewing experience.
"It's faithful to scripture,'' said Pastor Mammen, the president of the San Francisco Association of Evangelicals.
"It's only half the loaf,'' said Father McCann, an Episcopal priest from Orinda. "Where is Jesus' message of love and wisdom?''
With the exception of a few brief flashbacks, Gibson's "Passion" focuses on the carnage from the scourging of Jesus and the horror of his crucifixion.
Like many passion plays of the past, the movie has sparked controversy for its depiction of the leading role that Jewish authorities allegedly played in sealing the fate of the Christian messiah.
Pearce, the senior rabbi of Congregation Emanu-El, condemned Gibson's film as "blatantly anti-Semitic.''
"Why are almost all the Jews in the movie portrayed as bloodthirsty?'' he said. "There is even a scene where Satan is literally seen standing behind the Jewish priests.''
McCann, a former Catholic priest who now shepherds St. Stephen's Episcopal Church in Orinda, agreed with the rabbi.
"I see it as very anti-Semitic -- way over the top,'' the priest said.
Mammen, a minister with the Church of the Nazarene and pastor of the International Christian Center in San Jose, did not see the movie as anti- Semitic.
"Jews are God's chosen people. They are special in God's eyes,'' he said. "This is not a message of hate. It's a message of love.''
Many fundamentalist Christian churches and organizations are promoting Gibson's film as a way to bring new converts to their churches.
They are buying up blocks of seats and inviting the "unchurched'' to go to the movies.
While the 1 p.m. show at the Metreon was only half full on Wednesday, the 7:20 p.m. performance was sold out in advance.
"Evangelicals are using the opportunity that this movie presents to give nonbelievers a chance to hear and see the story in a nonthreatening theater environment,'' Mammen said.
But both Pearce and McCann said the film does not put the trial and torture of Jesus into historical and theological context, which makes it easy to misunderstand and see it as an indictment of the Jewish people.
"If I were a man from Mars and came down and saw this movie," Pearce said, "I'd say, 'What kind of religion is this? Why is it so focused on violence and death?' ''
Mammen, who was moved to tears by the film, agreed that Gibson "used too much violence to make his point.''
"But I have no problem with the message, that Jesus came and laid his life down for all of us," he said.
Mammen also suggested that everyone calm down a bit -- including the news media.
"It's a film,'' he said. "It's just a movie.''
E-mail Don Lattin at dlattin@sfchronicle.com.
I thought this was a fair review and account of the movie in there eyes.
For two long hours, the rabbi, the priest and the preacher sat in a half-empty theater Wednesday afternoon and watched Jesus get arrested, chained, tossed off a bridge, beaten to a bloody pulp and nailed to the cross.
Two thumbs way down, one thumb up, leaning to the right.
Those were the interfaith reviews after Rabbi Stephen Pearce, the Rev. Rob McCann and the Rev. P.T. Mammen attended the first public showing in San Francisco of "The Passion of the Christ," Mel Gibson's controversial movie about the trial and crucifixion of Jesus.
After the movie, the three clergymen sat in what passes for a quiet corner of the Metreon, speaking over the roar of car crashes and gunfire coming from the video-game arcade.
As blank-eyed teenagers played Need for Speed and Deer Hunting USA, these three men of God tried to make sense of the ancient violence they had just witnessed on the wide screen.
"It was the quintessential torture of a Jew,'' said Rabbi Pearce, speaking of his own viewing experience.
"It's faithful to scripture,'' said Pastor Mammen, the president of the San Francisco Association of Evangelicals.
"It's only half the loaf,'' said Father McCann, an Episcopal priest from Orinda. "Where is Jesus' message of love and wisdom?''
With the exception of a few brief flashbacks, Gibson's "Passion" focuses on the carnage from the scourging of Jesus and the horror of his crucifixion.
Like many passion plays of the past, the movie has sparked controversy for its depiction of the leading role that Jewish authorities allegedly played in sealing the fate of the Christian messiah.
Pearce, the senior rabbi of Congregation Emanu-El, condemned Gibson's film as "blatantly anti-Semitic.''
"Why are almost all the Jews in the movie portrayed as bloodthirsty?'' he said. "There is even a scene where Satan is literally seen standing behind the Jewish priests.''
McCann, a former Catholic priest who now shepherds St. Stephen's Episcopal Church in Orinda, agreed with the rabbi.
"I see it as very anti-Semitic -- way over the top,'' the priest said.
Mammen, a minister with the Church of the Nazarene and pastor of the International Christian Center in San Jose, did not see the movie as anti- Semitic.
"Jews are God's chosen people. They are special in God's eyes,'' he said. "This is not a message of hate. It's a message of love.''
Many fundamentalist Christian churches and organizations are promoting Gibson's film as a way to bring new converts to their churches.
They are buying up blocks of seats and inviting the "unchurched'' to go to the movies.
While the 1 p.m. show at the Metreon was only half full on Wednesday, the 7:20 p.m. performance was sold out in advance.
"Evangelicals are using the opportunity that this movie presents to give nonbelievers a chance to hear and see the story in a nonthreatening theater environment,'' Mammen said.
But both Pearce and McCann said the film does not put the trial and torture of Jesus into historical and theological context, which makes it easy to misunderstand and see it as an indictment of the Jewish people.
"If I were a man from Mars and came down and saw this movie," Pearce said, "I'd say, 'What kind of religion is this? Why is it so focused on violence and death?' ''
Mammen, who was moved to tears by the film, agreed that Gibson "used too much violence to make his point.''
"But I have no problem with the message, that Jesus came and laid his life down for all of us," he said.
Mammen also suggested that everyone calm down a bit -- including the news media.
"It's a film,'' he said. "It's just a movie.''
E-mail Don Lattin at dlattin@sfchronicle.com.
2quiktocare
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Many views surround this whole portion of the Bible. I am Christian myself and will tell anyone that asks. I try to live and show an example of my beliefs in life.
Whether you believe in the Christian God or not is irrelevant to this whole thread. The movie is true to the historical accounts of the crucifixion of Jesus. It does not tell you to be Christian, does not condemn you if you aren't, and passes no judgement on anything. It is a historical account of the murder of Jesus by the Romans. Any other message you carry away with you is simply your own conscience or guilt guiding you.
To compare it to any movie like Star Wars or the like is just showing simple-minded thought and in itself is being disrespectful of someone’s beliefs.
If you have read the Bible (would be a good thing to do no matter what your personal views are) you would know just how accurate it is to history.
I don' t pretend to think everyone is going to have like views. We can have our beliefs and not try to down someone else’s because we feel so insecure in our own thoughts.
What I do know for sure, anytime people come off the wall and attack (whether subtle or overt) others and not have any experience of fact to back up their thoughts, it is from personal fear or doubt.
Watch the movie and appreciate it for what it is, a faithful accounting of what was a significant time in the history of mankind. If you can't do that, then you do have issues to deal with and (if I may say so) may God be with you.
Mark
Whether you believe in the Christian God or not is irrelevant to this whole thread. The movie is true to the historical accounts of the crucifixion of Jesus. It does not tell you to be Christian, does not condemn you if you aren't, and passes no judgement on anything. It is a historical account of the murder of Jesus by the Romans. Any other message you carry away with you is simply your own conscience or guilt guiding you.
To compare it to any movie like Star Wars or the like is just showing simple-minded thought and in itself is being disrespectful of someone’s beliefs.
If you have read the Bible (would be a good thing to do no matter what your personal views are) you would know just how accurate it is to history.
I don' t pretend to think everyone is going to have like views. We can have our beliefs and not try to down someone else’s because we feel so insecure in our own thoughts.
What I do know for sure, anytime people come off the wall and attack (whether subtle or overt) others and not have any experience of fact to back up their thoughts, it is from personal fear or doubt.
Watch the movie and appreciate it for what it is, a faithful accounting of what was a significant time in the history of mankind. If you can't do that, then you do have issues to deal with and (if I may say so) may God be with you.
Mark
