the "why i carry a gun" thread made me post this.....for those that carry

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Originally posted by Robert Kastle
I believe even a poorly placed shot with the cassull or 45Long Colt+P will stop a determined attacker better than a well place 9mm,,,,, short of a head shot. The CASSULL has the velocity that the 45ACP does not. The CASSULL rounds are kind of tough for a fallow up but the 45Long Colt+Ps are great. I do believe there is such a thing as knock down and I think a 45 caliber gun has more than a 9mm. I've not been knocked down by a baseball but I have by a medicine ball. I do not carry the cassull or any gun for self defense. I just like to blow things up.

Just my 2 cents. I am no expert. Just someone that enjoys target shooting.

Even rifles and shotguns have failed to stop bad guys on occasion. That being the case, ANY handgun, regardless of caliber, can and will fail. Handguns are a compromise. They are hole punchers, nothing more. They do not have the velocity, not even the 454 Casull (note the correct spelling), which I own and use to hunt big game with, to guarantee an instant drop.

Every deer season there are instances where 150 pound deer are hit perfectly by guys using centerfire rifles like the 308 and 30-06. However, even though these deer are hit in the vitals with rifles that make FAR more power than even the 454, still can run 100 yards or more before dying. That being the case, do you really think a .45acp is a "stopper" or stops any better than a good 9mm JHP? Handgun cartridges are all too close in power (yes, again, even the 454) to instantly drop a human in their tracts, except for a CNS (central nervous shot). Again, I urge you guys to read the link from ammolab.com. It's a FAQ section that deals with myths like "stopping power", etc.

The following is an excerpt from an article that explains why firearms fail, even the big ones, at times when trying to stop a determined attacker. Source is here.

This is a true story that occured in NJ.

As to "big hole" failures, in the People's Republic of NJ there was an incident awhile back that shook a lot of folks. A drugged up goblin was shot through the back door and seat of a van he was driving with a 12ga slug. He exited the van with an inch-and-a half hole blown clear through his chest. (Yes, Virginia, daylight was visible!) He ran about 25 yards firing his pistol at his pursuers until he collapsed. (And you thought you were well armed with your 9mm / .357 / 10mm / .45, eh?) Check the wound profiles above for the 12ga slug and compare it with a pistol bullet profile. Then ask yourself if you will ever feel well armed ever again. Under those circumstances a tactical nuke might have been needed to provide the desired WTI.

The bottomline is as long as there is oxygen in the brain, which there is for up to 15 seconds after someone has been shot even with a direct bullet through the heart, he or she will continue to live. 15 seconds is a very long time when that person is shooting at you. The fact is, pistol calibers are piss-poor at incapacitating humans. A .45 is down-right puny when compared to a 1 ounce, .72 caliber 12 gauge slug that the above mention bad guy took to his chest. If he didn't stop on the spot by the slug, do you really think a .45 caliber pistol would have stopped him?

Can't say it enough, carry what you shoot best and pray you never have to use it.
 
Michigan
4hrs class room
4 hrs. on the range

160.00 after all was said and done
2 months to get ccw in my pocket

Glock 9mm
 
I live in Alabama and the yearly fee is based on the county you live in, in my case it's $20.00 a year.

In order to get my CCW I went to the sheriffs office, filled out the form, and after a background check, walked out with my permit....easy.

I either cary my Kimber Eclipse ULE 2 .45 auto or my trusty and beloved 13 year old Glock 19.

It seems to me that the .40 cal pistols are really being embraced by the LE community because it fills the gap between the 9mm and .45. I really believe that will be next weapon.

Good Thread by the way!
 
I also love my FN FiveseveN. that thing sounds wicked at the range. 20 rd capacity and the ability to penetrate IIa soft armor with the "non armor piercing" rounds are nice too :D
 
yeah, i just love the way it sounds indoors. everyone kept coming up to me asking what i was shooting. plus the fact people notice when you can pop off 20 rounds in a row with a pistol :D

i don't think i could really carry it for self defense unless i had that and my kimber :D

i was really suprised how easy it is to field strip the FiveseveN. its very light. very easy to shoot fast, feels good in my hand and is really accurate. too bad its a royal P.I.T.A. to get ammo for it and its expensive as hell.


that comp-tac shirt tucker is an AMAZING holster. i can wear khaki's and a polo shirt and have my full size 1911 on my side with no print. and i'm only 6' 170ish. i just make sure i have long shirt tails to kind of blouse it over my belt line to hide the clip on the side. but even that isn't very noticable against a black belt.
 
I use a C-TAC to conceal my 10mm Glock 20. It absolutely disappears under an untucked t-shirt. Great IWB holster.
 
I cant argue with what the profiles show. But simple physics is Force=Mass * Acceleration. A Bullet with more mass and more speed is going to be able to hit with more force. I guess the trick is getting a complete transfer of energy from the bullet to the target and in the correct spot. When I hit a five gallon steel gas can with a 9mm it only makes a couple of small holes. When I hit the same gas can with the Casull its gone,,,, nothing but little peices. My only point is that a larger mass hits with more force given the same speed.
 
yeah but how many follow up shots are you going to quickly pop off with a .454 casull. not to mention trying to carry a beast like that everyday lol.

not only is knockdown power critical but ability to place rapid follow up shots onto either the same target or engage multiple threats. what good is carrying a bazooka if you only get one round off and there's a chance you may miss? i'd rather have the ability to place multiple shots quickly.

real world =/= fantasy world of clint east wood and bruce willis.
 
In Florida, you can now go to the gun show listen to a 2-3 hour class . They then go to a range and you fire a weapon.
They do your finger printing and photo on the spot. Lice. takes 4-6 weeks to get to you.

Back in the day when I got mine, you didn't even have to touch a gun. Cost was $160 and an FBI backtound check. Renual every 5 yrs for $65.

I carry a Ruger .38 airweight. Either in my pocket or in a velcro fanny pack.
 
I carry a s&w 45 for long trips either out of town or out of state. Usually have my ak-47 on the gun rack in my truck when I go out to shoot. People tend to stare:eek: :D
 
Originally posted by Robert Kastle
I cant argue with what the profiles show. But simple physics is Force=Mass * Acceleration. A Bullet with more mass and more speed is going to be able to hit with more force. I guess the trick is getting a complete transfer of energy from the bullet to the target and in the correct spot. When I hit a five gallon steel gas can with a 9mm it only makes a couple of small holes. When I hit the same gas can with the Casull its gone,,,, nothing but little peices. My only point is that a larger mass hits with more force given the same speed.

Guys, I think a few of you are missing the point here. Energy transfer with regards to service-size handguns is not an issue. They simply DO NOT make enough power to generate the temporary wound cavity required to do what you speak of. The REAL trick is placing your bullets where they need to be as accurately and quickly as possible. Remember, if we can't rely on a centerfire rifle (2800+ft/lbs of muzzle energy) to instantly down a 150lb. deer 100% of the time, how can you rely on a 9mm/.40/.45 (350-500ft/lbs. of muzzle energy) to stop a 250lb. determined attacker? The answer...you CAN'T rely on your pistol to do it!! Quite frankly, pistols SUCK in this regard.

Water buckets, milk jugs, clay blocks, etc. are NOT human beings. DO NOT buy into the BS ads where you see clay blocks and milk jugs exploding. This does NOT happen where people are shot. Most of the time, in the heat of the battle, most people don't even realize they have been hit.

Don't ever rely on one shot to stop an attack. If a guy is worth shooting once, he's worth shooting twice (or 17 times for that matter).
 
I do not carry a weapon. The only time I have a gun on my person is when I am on the way to the range and even then it is in a gun bag. I keep all my pistols and rifles locked-up in a safe. What do I use for defense,,, A huge light. My house is so small keeping a weapon out would only invite trouble. They way my wife and I sleep we would never hear someone in the house.

Correct a Casull is not easy to place fallow-up. Besides the bullet is not usually going to stop after hitting the intended target. It is way to big for self defense in a populated area. My only point was a bigger mass hits harder given the same speed. I do not think of a gun as a device that makes holes but rather a device that transfers energy. You as a shooter want to get all the energy from the powder deliverd to the target. You do not have to punch a hole in something to kill it,,,, you only have to hit it really hard. Keep all the energy at the target and focused. Remember speed does not kill,,,,,its the stopping that hurts.



I would be afraid of getting accused of looking for a fight if I used the Casull or any of my guns for that matter,,, even my little P89. I think the public right now kind of looks down on people that enjoy shooting. They feel that if they have them that they intend on using them on someone,,,,,Evan looking for an opportunity. If you have a collection of guns and you end up hurting someone defending yourself,,,,,heaven help you because your going to be made to like some crazy vigalante.
 
Turbonatr,,,,,,,,,,I agree. Your talking oranges and Im talking apples,,,,sorry. The most important thing is good shot placement and the right choice of ammo for the intended use. If I were to carry a weapon I would choose the 9mm. Its not as good as my revolvers at 25+yds but close in it would do just fine.
 
Centerfire rifles produce the required velocity needed to "transfer energy", service-caliber pistols do not. They simply punch holes. A quick study of various rifle and handgun wound profiles shows this (reactions from milk jugs mean absolutely nothing in real-life shootings). The 300-700ft/lbs of muzzle energy your common 9mm, .357mag, 357Sig, .40, 10mm and .45acp produce simply is not nearly enough to turn internals into "mush" like your high-velocity centerfire rifles. Handguns simply drill holes. The bigger and deeper the holes, the better (given proper shot placement, of course). There really isn't any room for discussion here as it's pretty cut and dry.

Anyone familiar with the 10mm Auto knows it is the most powerful semi-auto cartridge able to fit in a service-size pistol. This cartridge, when loaded to full potential, develops muzzle energy in excess of 700ft/lbs at the muzzle from a full-size pistol like the Glock 20. Fans of the "energy transfer" crowd favor this cartridge for it's "energy dump". What they don't realize is that even the 10mm doesn't make enough energy to really do anything. Case is point is a story that is pretty well known over at glocktalk.com in the 10 Ring forum. A member took his G20 out hog hunting using a full-power 165gr. Golden Sabre load. This load made in excess of 700ft/lbs at the muzzle. He shot a decent-size hog right in the head with this load and the bullet failed to exit, therefore "dumping" it's full 700ft/lbs into the hog's head. The "energy dump" crowd was in disbelief when the read that the hog, apparently unimpressed with this "energy dump", charged the hunter at full speed. Disbelief or not, it happened. Why? handguns simply don't make enough power to drop an animal, two or four-legged, in their tracks. Energy transfer has some merit when talking about rifles, not handguns. Can't say it enough, handguns drill holes. Nothing more.
 
Perhaps a few visual aids are required.

Hole punchers...
 

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Both of my weapons have trijicon sights, what i meant about the reflex sights is that most people, just because theyve gone to a couple of classes and have a CCW, will not be able to aim when the **** hits the fan. reflex sights are the best for point and shoot period! and its true, i dont need expensive weapons like i said, im a pro at shooting and i train people for a living. its obvious that the DEA jackass was just someone that got picked to teach a class of kids, which in my experience should be taught just like youd teach adults.:D
 
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