the "why i carry a gun" thread made me post this.....for those that carry

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Originally posted by blackbird
Both of my weapons have trijicon sights, what i meant about the reflex sights is that most people, just because theyve gone to a couple of classes and have a CCW, will not be able to aim when the **** hits the fan. reflex sights are the best for point and shoot period! and its true, i dont need expensive weapons like i said, im a pro at shooting and i train people for a living. its obvious that the DEA jackass was just someone that got picked to teach a class of kids, which in my experience should be taught just like youd teach adults.:D

Seeing as you train people for a living, you know that if a person trains often and properly, they will automatically react how they train.

Aquire target, front sight, press trigger. Repeat as necessary.
 
I live in NJ, so a CCW permit is ver hard to get. I will carry if I am purchasing a car or any activity where I may have more than $2k on my person in cash. Weapon of choice is a Glock 19, and an AR-15 for home protection. NJ is so restrictive, I wonder if I'll ever get my CCW so I might move to PA just so it's easier. I'd understand if I had a criminal record, but for a law-abiding citizen such as myself it's ridiculous that I have to jump through hoops for a CCW.
 
Originally posted by turbonatr
Even rifles and shotguns have failed to stop bad guys on occasion. That being the case, ANY handgun, regardless of caliber, can and will fail. Handguns are a compromise. They are hole punchers, nothing more. They do not have the velocity, not even the 454 Casull (note the correct spelling), which I own and use to hunt big game with, to guarantee an instant drop.

Every deer season there are instances where 150 pound deer are hit perfectly by guys using centerfire rifles like the 308 and 30-06. However, even though these deer are hit in the vitals with rifles that make FAR more power than even the 454, still can run 100 yards or more before dying. That being the case, do you really think a .45acp is a "stopper" or stops any better than a good 9mm JHP? Handgun cartridges are all too close in power (yes, again, even the 454) to instantly drop a human in their tracts, except for a CNS (central nervous shot). Again, I urge you guys to read the link from ammolab.com. It's a FAQ section that deals with myths like "stopping power", etc.

The following is an excerpt from an article that explains why firearms fail, even the big ones, at times when trying to stop a determined attacker. Source is here.

This is a true story that occured in NJ.



The bottomline is as long as there is oxygen in the brain, which there is for up to 15 seconds after someone has been shot even with a direct bullet through the heart, he or she will continue to live. 15 seconds is a very long time when that person is shooting at you. The fact is, pistol calibers are piss-poor at incapacitating humans. A .45 is down-right puny when compared to a 1 ounce, .72 caliber 12 gauge slug that the above mention bad guy took to his chest. If he didn't stop on the spot by the slug, do you really think a .45 caliber pistol would have stopped him?

Can't say it enough, carry what you shoot best and pray you never have to use it.

this really sounds like an urban legend to me----the part about the guy shot in the van
 
Originally posted by turbonatr
The 10% I was refering to was in reference to the gelatin, not the difference in the two calibers.

Though the 45acp's bullets are heavier, the respective sectional density is almost identical when comparing their weight catagories. For example, the 147gr. 9mm and 230gr. .45acp share an almost identical sectional density. This means both of these bullets share very similar penetrating abilities. It doesn't matter how heavy a bullet is, if you don't put it where it needs to be, it won't be effective. You will find premium JHPs in these two weights penetrate virtually the same. When comparing two calibers in terms of their sectional densities, their actual bullet weight is almost irrelavent. Also, comparing heavy cars and light cars hitting you has nothing to do with the effects of a heavy bullet and a light bullet. Your experience with expert shooters choosing the 45acp really pales in comparison with the rest of the world using the 9mm as their chosen side arm caliber (as you probably know, the 9mm is the NATO cartridge). BTW, all the professionals I interact and train with want a rifle or shotgun for stopping a threat, not a piss-ant pistol regardless of caliber.;)

Capacity between the two will vary on the platform you choose. For example, the gun you carry may only have a 2 or 3 round advantage for the 9mm pistol, but a 5 round difference in another type of pistol.

I get the same feeling when I hear the words "stopping power" as I get when someone walks up to me in the staging lanes and says, "hey man, nice Monte Carlo".:rolleyes:

To each his own. Carry what ever you shoot best and are most efficient with. A bad guy is not going to be able to tell the difference between being hit with a 147gr. 9mm Gold Dot or a 230gr. .45acp Golden Sabre. What ever you carry, keep pressing the trigger until the threat stops. A real warrior only uses his pistol to fight his way back to his rifle or shotgun.;)

Be safe.

you sound like a book general to me--thats like when a guy asks you if your car is a monte carlo to you

as tta said the bigger bullet is going to cause a bigger hole and more "knockdown" power---

shot placement is good in theory but what if you dont hit right where you aim(when its not a block of gelatin or a paper target you are shooting at)?

this discussion is about handguns and not long guns---the bigger caliber is better for self defense PROVIDING the person is capable with the gun--werent you ever in a situation where you would give everything you own just to get a hit in anywhere on a suspect ?--and if you get that hit you want it to do the most damage possible
 
Originally posted by LC2 ROD
SIG 226 "Dont bother running, you will just die tired"

i carried(still do) one of these for years--i fired thousands and thousands of rounds through it and it never jammed-great gun but i would prefer the bigger sig caliber if i buy another gun--for the extra stopping power
 
Originally posted by Big Stu
I carry a s&w 45 for long trips either out of town or out of state. Usually have my ak-47 on the gun rack in my truck when I go out to shoot. People tend to stare:eek: :D

do you still have to have a federal permit for the machine gun
 
Again, the point you are missing is the difference between power among service calibers is not enough to make a difference. They all perform very much alike when premium JHPs are used. I'm not going to sit here and argue with you. I have provided numerous links which prove my argument. You can either read them and learn something, or continue to be ignorant. It's your choice.

Book general? LOL. My friend, you have no idea who I am. Yes, I HAVE been in that situation...twice. Have YOU? Have you ever even been hunting to see what bullets do in real flesh, bone a muscle? Do you have anything to prove your theories other than anecdotal evidence based on what bullets to do poor, defensless milk jugs?

I know better than to talk guns on a car board. What was I thinking!!?? :rolleyes:
 
Originally posted by sr71gn
do you still have to have a federal permit for the machine gun

Not all AK-47s are full-auto, Einstein. If you take a look at the pic I posted above, I have two AK-47s. And you don't need a "Federal permit" to own a full-auto. You pay a $200 tax stamp.

Yeah, you really know your stuff...:rolleyes:
 
Originally posted by sr71gn
iif i buy another gun--for the extra stopping power

Since you won't bother to click on the link provided, I'll post it here for you.

What caliber has the best Stopping Power* ?


"Stopping Power" is a misleading term when discussing small arms munitions terminal performance and wound ballistics as there is not an absolute medical mechanism that will cause an immediate and absolute stop when facing the human predator with one shot and there is not a valid means to compare cartridges with "stopping power".

Note- Our discussion of Stopping Power * is not related to the text Handgun Stopping Power*

"Stopping Power"* as defined and used in ammunition advertisements and online discussions throughout the industry and the internet is most often explained as the ability to stop or incapacitate an attacker with one (sometimes more) bullets fired into them immediately. This is very vague as it does not address the medical aspects or the technical aspects of the gun shot wound or penetration and is the primary reason for so much confusion. End users have been seeking improved "stopping power"* since it first appeared in print over 60 years ago and just as Thompson & LeGard, Hatcher, Taylor, Fackler, and many more discovered there is no exact way to qualify it or to predict the physiological or psyhcological responses of the human predator to gunshot injury. Stopping Power or power rating systems have been published for the past 60 years and from the knockout formulas to the power factors to the statisitical models they are even more confusing for the end user as they present a standard and criterion that changes with every new system.

The hope of providing improvements in ammunition product performance has lead to the expanded research into the study that is known as wound ballistics today. Dr. Martin Fackler was the original pioneer who opened the door and paved the way so to speak as to the science. Dr. Facklers work is archived here and also at Firearms Tactical and it is well worth the time to review it.

Readers are also advised to look for ammunition products which discuss quality, consistency, accuracy, and reliability and to use the same intelligent evaluation process and do their own research. In many of the current articles, books, and website systems that have become popularized in the Internet and Shooting Sports Publications, cartridges are often ranked using methodologies and percentage scales of ranked effectiveness. The end user should as always question any such study and such require references, sources, and the ability to validate any claims being made that they find to be questionable. As always with outlandish claims caveat emptor or let the buyer beware is all that needs to be said.

To date the only professionally accepted study done which was verified as scientifically accurate that was done comparing actual LE line of duty shooting information, medical autopsy, and laboratory testing was performed by the late Eugene J. Wolberg.

Eugene "Gene" was a San Diego Criminologist and he compared all three facets using over one hundred LEO line of duty shootings with the Winchester 147gr 9mm loading. His study was partially published by the magazine American Handgunner in their year end annual and the IWBA. (We do not know if back issues are still available, you will need to contact them directly.)

The reader of this website is advised that no one system and no test or individual can currently predict the variables in the human response to gun shot wounds or trauma; these issues in particular are exceedingly variable and this website compares competing ammunition and firearm products using certified, controlled, and validated laboratory conditions; we do not and cannot predict any products ability to incapacitate any animal or validate any products ability to protect the end user from life threatening injury or criminal assault.

Handgun cartridges especially are comparatively small and weak while the predatory human animal is large, strong, determined, aggressive, and capable of sustaining lethal wounds while remaining functional, dangerous, and ambulatory with loss of limb, heart tissue, blood volume, and even fatal brain injuries.

An intelligent, conservative, and careful person will evaluate each ammunition product based on their own needs or duty requirements and depend not just upon the product but upon the quality of their training and their ability to think and react under stress in life threatening situations.

From the AmmoLab FAQ. www.ammolab.com
 
Originally posted by turbonatr
Again, the point you are missing is the difference between power among service calibers is not enough to make a difference. They all perform very much alike when premium JHPs are used. I'm not going to sit here and argue with you. I have provided numerous links which prove my argument. You can either read them and learn something, or continue to be ignorant. It's your choice.

Book general? LOL. My friend, you have no idea who I am. Yes, I HAVE been in that situation...twice. Have YOU? Have you ever even been hunting to see what bullets do in real flesh, bone a muscle? Do you have anything to prove your theories other than anecdotal evidence based on what bullets to do poor, defensless milk jugs?

I know better than to talk guns on a car board. What was I thinking!!?? :rolleyes:

i think you are missing the point --that is--every little tenth helps

why do you keep bring up animals in this -- i have seen hundreds of humans shot with many different kinds of guns and yes i have been in the situation many times --i seriously doubt you have or you wouldn't be arguing this point--

and i will admit that i have only seen one person shot through a door first with a rifled slug--- that person was extremely dead with a 7 in hole in his chest not a 1 and a half in hole as in your story
 
Let it go, bud. Scientifically proven evidence trumps your gut feelings. Like I said, if you aren't going to bother to read the info I provided, fine. But don't sit there and keep spewing your gut feelings and pass them off as fact.

Why do I keep bring up animals? Umm, big guy, humans ARE animals!! The difference is, animals don't watch TV and movies. They aren't programmed to fall down when they get shot. Game animals run like hell when they get shot. There is no stopping power. Game animals run off after being shot becasue as long as there is oxygen in the brain, the body continues to live. There have been people shot with .22s and dropped dead and others who have taken multiple rounds of .45acp and continued to fight. Every little tenth do NOT help enough to really make a difference! Handguns do NOT create a temporary wound channel large enough to immediately incapacatate a person, period!! Well placed shots that penetrate sufficiently are what count. A person does NOT know the difference between beeing shot with a 9mm or a 10mm or a .45 or whatever!

7 inch hole in his chest? Yeah, OK. Look, you can let this go at any time.
 
Every deer season there are instances where 150 pound deer are hit perfectly by guys using centerfire rifles like the 308 and 30-06. However, even though these deer are hit in the vitals with rifles that make FAR more power than even the 454, still can run 100 yards or more before dying. That being the case, do you really think a .45acp is a "stopper" or stops any better than a good 9mm JHP? Handgun cartridges are all too close in power (yes, again, even the 454) to instantly drop a human in their tracts, except for a CNS (central nervous shot). Again, I urge you guys to read the link from ammolab.com. It's a FAQ section that deals with myths like "stopping power", etc.

well im not expert.....but I am a deer hunter....and I will offer a theory.....and its definately only a thought. again, im far from being an expert.

a .45 ACP is one big arsed piece of lead. when it impacts.....it wads up even larger. its a slow moving caliber with a lot of knockdown power.

I deer hunt with a .270. Id say the vast majority of hunters use a .30 caliber of some sort. ie.....30-06, 30-30, 300 mag, and so on.

most of these bullets have many times greater the muzzle velocity of any hand gun load. the slowest of which is probably the.45 ACP.

when a deer is shot with one if these extremely fast high powered rifle bullets.....the shot VERY QUICKLY goes straight through the animal......and stuns it. therefor it takes off running. knock down power is less existent because of this.

one example of this......last year.....I shot a deer at 60 yards.....bullet went straight through....deer ran 150 yards and i had to track it.

another time I shot one a 325 yards.....the bullet never exited because of the distance. deer dropped in his tracks.

I would submit that a handgun load, with slow muzzle velocity, where the bullet never exits the victim, would have way more knock down power than a high powered rifle load that quickly goes through the victim.

again....this is just one laymans opinion.
 
You need to compare the wound profile of the .45 and a 30-06. Yes, the .30 goes through very quickly, but the wound it creates is devastating compared to a .45acp wound (please see the above link comparing wound profiles of various calibers). Handguns wound by crushing tissue with their permanant wound channel. That is, the diameter of the hole they make in a target. Rifles wound with both the temporary AND permanant wound channels. Rifle bullets move so fast that they turn internal organs within the temporary wound channel into liquid. This is why a .30-06 with completely obliterate a deer's heart whereas a .45acp will just make a hole in it. Your two deer hunting examples are far from a cold-hard scientific test as there are SO many variables in those two examples. ANY hunter worth his salt will tell you two holes are bette than one as the animals bleed out faster with two holes. As a matter of fact, same goes for humans. The only way to physically stop someone besides a direct CNS hit is by making it bleed out.

I seriously hope you aren't suggesting a handgun is a better stopper than a rifle?
 
Guys, with all due respect, I think I'm done with this thread. Links have been provided for those who wish to learn a little and perhaps better "arm" themselves with scientifically proven data from real shootings versus war stories about the .45 killing guys where they stand from near misses. I honestly don't have the patience anymore for that. Ya know, giving someone bad info about their fuel system in a GN will only potentially kill the engine. Passing off BS info on what someone thinks works in stopping an attacker will get that person killed. Sorry, but if that person refuses to listen to FACTS, than I'm just wasting my time. I see this every day as a moderator at Glock Talk dealing with 14 year olds who read too many gun magazines at the store while their mommys' are shopping. I don't want to see it here, a place I come to relax and talk about Buicks. I think it's time to remove the subscription to this one.

TTAfreak. This isn't directed towards you. You really seem like you want to learn. Good on ya, bud.

Enjoy the rest of your weekend.:)
 
Originally posted by turbonatr
Let it go, bud. Scientifically proven evidence trumps your gut feelings. Like I said, if you aren't going to bother to read the info I provided, fine. But don't sit there and keep spewing your gut feelings and pass them off as fact.

Why do I keep bring up animals? Umm, big guy, humans ARE animals!! The difference is, animals don't watch TV and movies. They aren't programmed to fall down when they get shot. Game animals run like hell when they get shot. There is no stopping power. Game animals run off after being shot becasue as long as there is oxygen in the brain, the body continues to live. There have been people shot with .22s and dropped dead and others who have taken multiple rounds of .45acp and continued to fight. Every little tenth do NOT help enough to really make a difference! Handguns do NOT create a temporary wound channel large enough to immediately incapacatate a person, period!! Well placed shots that penetrate sufficiently are what count. A person does NOT know the difference between beeing shot with a 9mm or a 10mm or a .45 or whatever!

7 inch hole in his chest? Yeah, OK. Look, you can let this go at any time.

as i said before it is obvious you are a book general and you have no idea of the real world---yea it was a seven inch hole --but that is the real world --not your book world---

these are not my gut feelings --it is just plain common sense--the bigger caliber bullets do more damage--if you are fortunate to hit the person you are shooting at, common sense should tell you that you want to put the most hurt on them you can with that particular hit

i dont think anyone would argue that a bullet in the brain would incapacitate a subject-- but the big thing is what if you dont hit them between the running lights

the us army originally introduced the 45 because the moros in the philippines used a combination of leather wrappings and narcotics that put them in a semi conscious state--the .38 longs that are soldiers carried had little or no effect on them

the only reason we went to the beretta nines was the extra rounds and the fact that they wanted to have a common bullet with the rest of natos forces--and the guns were easier to handle given the limited training the troops received with them ----very stupid reasoning--in desert storm marines quickly broke out their 45's because the nines were malfunctioning in the sand

all major swat teams in the country have went to larger caliber handguns --wonder why?
 
Originally posted by turbonatr
Not all AK-47s are full-auto, Einstein. If you take a look at the pic I posted above, I have two AK-47s. And you don't need a "Federal permit" to own a full-auto. You pay a $200 tax stamp.

Yeah, you really know your stuff...:rolleyes:

the onlyreal ak-47 i know of is a full auto assault rifle adopted by the soviet union army in 1949--30 round mag -no bayonet

if you knew your stuff you would know that you cant just pay $200 for a tax stamp and own a machine gun legally

you used to have to be a over 21 ---get a records check(fbi) and have a form signed by your local law enforcement that you are not currently under indictment--and some states didnt allow it
 
Originally posted by turbonatr
Guys, with all due respect, I think I'm done with this thread. Links have been provided for those who wish to learn a little and perhaps better "arm" themselves with scientifically proven data from real shootings versus war stories about the .45 killing guys where they stand from near misses. I honestly don't have the patience anymore for that. Ya know, giving someone bad info about their fuel system in a GN will only potentially kill the engine. Passing off BS info on what someone thinks works in stopping an attacker will get that person killed. Sorry, but if that person refuses to listen to FACTS, than I'm just wasting my time. I see this every day as a moderator at Glock Talk dealing with 14 year olds who read too many gun magazines at the store while their mommys' are shopping. I don't want to see it here, a place I come to relax and talk about Buicks. I think it's time to remove the subscription to this one.

TTAfreak. This isn't directed towards you. You really seem like you want to learn. Good on ya, bud.

Enjoy the rest of your weekend.:)

you ought to get over your chatroom moderator self and take to heart your own post-- your bad advice could seriously hurt someone
 
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