To An Original GN Owner - CA Emissions Limits

[Dean]

What were the original limits indicated on your first emissions test?

I am wondering how CA comes up with their limits, and how it is possible that the limits can be lowered as drastically as they recently were (30%).

 

[jiho2]

Where did you hear this?

I'm subject to CA smog, and what I know about is lower limits for NEW CARS starting with the 2017 model year. That's all. Nothing that affects anything currently on the road, nor even currently on the design boards.

So AFAIK it isn't possible and they can't.

 

[Dean]

For everyone in our region (SFO bay area), limits were lowered 30%, and there have been numerous failures as well as borderlines passes.

 

[jiho2]

I just checked the tables from 2003 and the current tables for 2012. Nothing has changed. All of the limits are still the same, for all kinds of testing everywhere in the state.

Someone has confused matters with the state's plan to cut greenhouse gas emissions by 34% by 2025. That plan would only affect smog test limits for 2017-2025 model years -- nothing currently on the road -- and I think the feds may be challenging that plan in court, anyway.

 

[Dean]

Well, that's interesting. Check these maximum limits out for my 86 (87 is more stringent):

Max limits for 2004-2010 vs. 2012
HC @ 15 mph: 126 vs. 88
HC @ 25 mph: 101 vs. 71
CO @ 15 mph: 0.79 vs. 0.55
CO @ 25 mph: 0.59 vs. 0.41
NO @ 15 mph: 1097 vs. 768
NO @ 25 mph: 927 vs. 649

30% decrease across the board.


Max limits in 2002 (different test parameters, though)
HC @ idle rpm: 120
HC @ 2500 rpm: 150
CO @ idle rpm 1.00
CO @ 2500 rpm 1.20

Many cars test at ~1800 rpms, it seems. Comparing to the "old" testing method and maximums, somehow our cars are expected to run cleaner under load. Hm.

 

[jiho2]

Yeah, your 2002 limits are the "two-speed idle" test, which is what I have, and those numbers all still match.

Here are the current limits CARB provides for dyno testing 1984-86 passenger cars. These are from the table in the 2012 California Code of Regulations (3340.42), last modified 10/31/2001:

HC - ASM5015: 67.0
HC - ASM2525: 42.1
CO - ASM5015: 0.52
CO - ASM2525: 0.32
NO - ASM5015: 850.0
NO - ASM2525: 680.0

So most of the limits in the Code are actually LOWER than the lower limits in your list, and have been since at least 2002. The sole exception is NO @ 15, where your number is lower.

?!?

 

[Dean]

Well this is even more perplexing. Makes me wonder, just how are these limits being established? Based on what data??

 

[jiho2]

Comparing to the "old" testing method and maximums, somehow our cars are expected to run cleaner under load. Hm.

For the "old" test (two-speed idle), HC is ppm (parts per million) and CO is % (parts per hundred). For the dyno test, the limits are gpm (grams per mile). So the numbers are apples and oranges.

The two-speed idle test measures relative pollution, that is, what fraction of the exhaust is pollutants, so it doesn't matter what volume of exhaust you're putting out. The dyno test looks at the total amounts of pollutants, so a car that puts out a larger volume of exhaust (with the same fractions as a car with a smaller volume) will do worse.

 

[jiho2]

Alright, I finally figured out what you guys have been talking about!

It seems that in Sept 2002 the state passed AB 2637, which moved San Francisco from "basic area" (two-speed idle test) to "enhanced area" (dyno test), starting in 2004. But the bill provided for a TRANSITION to the "enhanced area" limits.

Your 2004-2010 tests were under the 1st phase of the transition. Now you've been bumped to the 2nd phase. But as you can see from the numbers I posted above, you have a ways to go yet. At some point, you will be bumped to the numbers I posted above -- the limits that Los Angeles and all other "enhanced areas" are under.

As for why the state thinks San Francisco needs the same measures as Los Angeles .... ?!?

 

[charlief1]

As for why the state thinks San Francisco needs the same measures as Los Angeles .... ?!?

I'm sure it has to do with all the "emmisions" that happen in the SF area gay community.

 

[Dean]

At some point, you will be bumped to the numbers I posted above -- the limits that Los Angeles and all other "enhanced areas" are under.

Great. I can't wait to get the heck out of this state...

 

[Red C5]

Really looking forward to the year the cars become exempt from smog.

 

[jiho2]

Really looking forward to the year the cars become exempt from smog.

Here in California, that year is NEVER. The boys passed a law revoking that provision several years ago. Anything 1976 and later is now subject to smog FOREVER in California.

 

[MaxVO2]

Oh man, never is a long time. My car recently became exempt here in Maryland and I got historic tags, etc.. My car was always borderline to pass with 60 lbs injectors, big turbo etc.. I bought a nice 3 inch cat for my downpipe, an emissions chip, did lots of tuning, etc... and the car always failed once or twice before I dialed it all in. Thankfully that phase of my life for this car is over.. I will probably be selling my almost new 3 inch Cat soon as I have put a nice test pipe in its place.

California sounds like a nice place to visit...

Billy

 

[jiho2]

You can cruise around smugly looking down your nose at all the fools who live here!

 

[cruzn57]

having lived most of my life in calif, I am so glad to be out of there.
gas approaching $5.00 per gal, insurance prices out of site( to pay for all the illegals)
and tree huggers wanting to ban all cars!
car tags are double to triple most other states.
they (calif) ban certain weapons, (yet criminals still have them)
now they wanna ban ammunition.
the state is broke, yet they want to tax more,and
give to the illegals, and spend more on frivolous projects !
can't see why anyone wants to live there anymore.
I feel sorry for you that are stuck there.

 

[MaxVO2]

I have read about California from others and many of the things you say are repeated over and over again....

The irony of the matter is that many of the people in California - having completely f*d up their state end up moving to other states and starting the process all over again. We pay all of this money here in MD for Emissions certs, crazy registration costs, and supplementary uninsured motorist costs (read: ILLEGALS), and now the crazies in this state (many from Cali, including our politicians..) want to provide in-state tuition price to illegals who can't get a drivers license legally unless they are legal (law was changed..), and who won't be able to get a job after they graduate from college unless they are legal... And, they don't even take their cars through emissions certifications because they don't care but the State used to hassle me over my pristine GN which is insured and well maintained for the stupid cert.. Give Cali back and put a fence around it and leave the rest of us alone.

 

[87-WE2]

I've heard that E85 (if you guys even have that in CA) makes it easier to pass emissions. Seems plausible since only 15-30% of the fuel is petroleum-based, and your fueling with a gasoline chip would be pretty lean. I don't know for sure, though. It might be worth some research, or even a try the next time you have to do the emissions test.

Thank goodness TX emissions testing expired this year for ALL TB's. I failed miserably the first time I tried to title my car. I had to spend some serious coin to get my car to pass emissions.

 

[jiho2]

I have read about California from others and many of the things you say are repeated over and over again....

The irony of the matter is that many of the people in California - having completely f*d up their state end up moving to other states and starting the process all over again. We pay all of this money here in MD for Emissions certs, crazy registration costs, and supplementary uninsured motorist costs (read: ILLEGALS), and now the crazies in this state (many from Cali, including our politicians..) want to provide in-state tuition price to illegals who can't get a drivers license legally unless they are legal (law was changed..), and who won't be able to get a job after they graduate from college unless they are legal... And, they don't even take their cars through emissions certifications because they don't care but the State used to hassle me over my pristine GN which is insured and well maintained for the stupid cert.. Give Cali back and put a fence around it and leave the rest of us alone.

Well, look at it this way .... If the people who live here are fools, when they finally do leave they will be .... fools somewhere else! Hahahahaha!

 

[Gnx6]

Here in California, that year is NEVER. The boys passed a law revoking that provision several years ago. Anything 1976 and later is now subject to smog FOREVER in California.

You can thank the Gubenator (Terminator) for that one.