Total Seal Rings
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Lee Thompson
New Member
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- May 24, 2001
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- 3,184
Couple things
I am not that HOT on Total Seal any more.
They do seal up good.
Their wear is too fast for me especially @ their price.
They suggest WAY too much oil ring gap.
I know of 3 cases locally that were installed with too much oil ring gap (a call was put in to Total Seal and the gap was questioned) Now they are down for new rings.
I had a set of their Top Total Seal. Each time I would change the oil my magnet would have material on it, I thought some day they will seat. They were seated. They were wearing out early.
I am not that HOT on Total Seal any more.
They do seal up good.
Their wear is too fast for me especially @ their price.
They suggest WAY too much oil ring gap.
I know of 3 cases locally that were installed with too much oil ring gap (a call was put in to Total Seal and the gap was questioned) Now they are down for new rings.
I had a set of their Top Total Seal. Each time I would change the oil my magnet would have material on it, I thought some day they will seat. They were seated. They were wearing out early.
Re: Couple things
did you do a fine plasma moly finish on the cylinders when you honed them?
I have not had any wear problems. The rings in my motor have 20k on them and were put in there in 98. I have not freshened this motor yet and last time out in vegas i ran better than it ever has.
did you do a fine plasma moly finish on the cylinders when you honed them?
I have not had any wear problems. The rings in my motor have 20k on them and were put in there in 98. I have not freshened this motor yet and last time out in vegas i ran better than it ever has.
I have been using the total seal rings in my series III supercharger motor(16,000 miles), with no problem. i have alway use they rings in every single application from imports to american
. a gapless top ring is the worst ring set-up for turbo application. you may think the rings are bad. but you made a bad selection with the gapless top rings. it is best to use a gapless second ring in turbo application. the gapless second ring increase cranking compression. I notice with all my total seal gaplessre-build the engine will start much quicker when COLD or warm.
a gapless top ring will loose more compress air on the compression stroke when compare to the gapless second rings. a standard top ring will see minimum blow-by, but the second gapless rings will seal the cylinder 99.99 percent...
Believe me TOTAL SEAL pistion rings are the BEST. and i am not just saying this because i own the ring. you can ask any professional engine build (not a race car driver)
. a gapless top ring is the worst ring set-up for turbo application. you may think the rings are bad. but you made a bad selection with the gapless top rings. it is best to use a gapless second ring in turbo application. the gapless second ring increase cranking compression. I notice with all my total seal gaplessre-build the engine will start much quicker when COLD or warm. a gapless top ring will loose more compress air on the compression stroke when compare to the gapless second rings. a standard top ring will see minimum blow-by, but the second gapless rings will seal the cylinder 99.99 percent...
Believe me TOTAL SEAL pistion rings are the BEST. and i am not just saying this because i own the ring. you can ask any professional engine build (not a race car driver)
Jason,
I saw your car @Bowling green(5-20-05). My question is What did you have to do to make those rings work?
Work meaning, Not smoking @ Idle.
Any other time it was fine.
I noticed the vacuum setup from the passenger valve cover.
Did you put a viton seal on the intake valve? and put a teflon on the exhaust?
Also, What about the stock PCV setup? Any check valves?
What about seating those rings? Did you use quick seat?
I realize I'm asking a lot of questions here, but this is the 2nd time to pull the motor.
You seem to be the one that can make them work. From what i saw.
John
jjkv@houston.rr.com
I saw your car @Bowling green(5-20-05). My question is What did you have to do to make those rings work?
Work meaning, Not smoking @ Idle.
Any other time it was fine.
I noticed the vacuum setup from the passenger valve cover.
Did you put a viton seal on the intake valve? and put a teflon on the exhaust?
Also, What about the stock PCV setup? Any check valves?
What about seating those rings? Did you use quick seat?
I realize I'm asking a lot of questions here, but this is the 2nd time to pull the motor.
You seem to be the one that can make them work. From what i saw.
John
jjkv@houston.rr.com
Turbo1dr
9 Sec Wanna-Be
- Joined
- May 25, 2001
- Messages
- 2,407
Just pulled the engine out of my Malibu with only 7000 miles on it. Total seal rings were installed and gapped like instructions stated. Upon teardown, I noticed the second gapless rings were lined back up on 4 of the pistons with the gaps over each other. I'm wondering now if it's worth the cost for these rings to be installed on a street driven car that sees a lot miles.
Just my findings on mine. As far as PCV issues I've had none.
Just my findings on mine. As far as PCV issues I've had none.
i never had any problem with the total seal ring in my 2005 GTP COMP-G powerplant. which is now turning 400+ hp supercharger. car has 22,000 mile, and just got wreck by a drunk driver.
http://turbobuick.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=157209
I am currently running gapless ring on my TR, with no smokey exhaust. i use the QUICK SEAT powder from total seal. VERY IMPORTANT: the cylinder wall must be extremly clean before installing the piston. if the cylinder wall turn GREEN when applying the QUICK SEAT power, then you did not do a good job at cleaning the cylinder walls. so yes you will experance problem the apply improperly. also the cylinder has to be hone with i believe a 200 grit stone i believe.
I AM HAVING GREAT SUCCESS WITH GAPLESS RINGS.
http://turbobuick.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=157209
I am currently running gapless ring on my TR, with no smokey exhaust. i use the QUICK SEAT powder from total seal. VERY IMPORTANT: the cylinder wall must be extremly clean before installing the piston. if the cylinder wall turn GREEN when applying the QUICK SEAT power, then you did not do a good job at cleaning the cylinder walls. so yes you will experance problem the apply improperly. also the cylinder has to be hone with i believe a 200 grit stone i believe.
I AM HAVING GREAT SUCCESS WITH GAPLESS RINGS.
Shaun Tiede
New Member
- Joined
- May 30, 2005
- Messages
- 21
Some may feel that my comments with regard to the Total Seal issue can be considered hijacking. My post here is not geared for all of you, just those who are having problems with rings. I am still in the Cam business. I was with UltraDyne for 13 years. I got into the Engine Blueprinting business because so many cam customers wanted me to work their motors too.
There is one thing that no one mentions here and that very few in the engine business understand but is extreemly critical. That is Honing. Very few(including Engine Builders) own a Profilometer or even know what a profilometer is. Most hone blocks the same way. Most who have done it for 30 years also say they still do it the same today. Rings have changed. Materials and process has changed. Tolerances of rings and pistons have also come a very long way even in the last 10 years. What is interesting to see is the surface finishes the so called trick hone produces. Funny thing is that I can re finish a Comp Eliminator motor with less than 30 passes on it because it is guzzling oil, but after I finish it, it makes 35 more HP on average, and it runs for 150 passes. In terms of Ra's and Rz's, it is way off from what Total Seal and the other Ring people suggest. Usually I see Ra numbers of 6 instead of 18, and I see Rz numbers like 80-100 instead of 170 or better. It is way too shallow and way too slick. THey wonder why it smokes like a Grill when they go to the Dyno with it! Slick hones don't make power and they don't last. Sure they spin easier on the bench with a torque wrench. They also coke the cylinder with oil because they have a hard time controlling oil (they smoke.) 400 Grit stones are great for a final finish using very light pressure and only a couple of strokes because it will help the surface finish without killing the Rz's (the depth.) To have any luck with a Total Seal ring whatsoever, you have to have clean honing oil, and you need to hone with a soft bonded 220 grit stone Like an EHU 518 at high pressure (60AMPS for you CK10 users). Then you finish with a soft bonded 280 grit stone like a JUH623 at still high pressure. If you must use a 400 grit afterwards (818 or 820), just kiss it with very light pressure for 3 strokes. THen clean with ATF then Lacquer thinner. Oil it with a reall light oil or Quick Seat. If you don't hone it like this, I assure you there will be problems just like others have reported even in this thread! A hone has to be deep to hold oil. A hone is a bearing area. If you hone light and with smooth stones, you won't have any bearing area and won't have oil retention, and the ring will wear FAST though it will be slow to seat. ALso, the harder the block material is, the softer the stone has to be for it to cut. This is why a stone used for honing a production block won't even scratch a Hard Sleeve or an aftermarket race block. You will find when you hone the way I have suggested, your motor will seal up instantly, you will have great oil control even with light oil (I hate 20W50 and so does GM) and low tension rings without vacuume pumps, you will make more power, and you will have a much longer running set of rings. Just look at Detroit. NONE of their cylinder finishes are smooth. They are very aggressive! Your 10,000 mile motor that was re honed and now having 10,000 miles on it, having almost no visible cross hatch, is almost surely a result of a very light cutting pressure with a fine stone.
The other thing you can't do if you want success is install the ring by hand. I.E. twisting it onto the piston. You have to expand it, or you will turn it into a lock washer, it will spin in the bore and it will also not be sealed in all areas because it is twisted. JUst disassemble the rings and inspect the wear pattern. You will see.
Have you checked the radial clearance between the ring and the ring land with a feeler guage? It should be no more than .002.
There is one thing that no one mentions here and that very few in the engine business understand but is extreemly critical. That is Honing. Very few(including Engine Builders) own a Profilometer or even know what a profilometer is. Most hone blocks the same way. Most who have done it for 30 years also say they still do it the same today. Rings have changed. Materials and process has changed. Tolerances of rings and pistons have also come a very long way even in the last 10 years. What is interesting to see is the surface finishes the so called trick hone produces. Funny thing is that I can re finish a Comp Eliminator motor with less than 30 passes on it because it is guzzling oil, but after I finish it, it makes 35 more HP on average, and it runs for 150 passes. In terms of Ra's and Rz's, it is way off from what Total Seal and the other Ring people suggest. Usually I see Ra numbers of 6 instead of 18, and I see Rz numbers like 80-100 instead of 170 or better. It is way too shallow and way too slick. THey wonder why it smokes like a Grill when they go to the Dyno with it! Slick hones don't make power and they don't last. Sure they spin easier on the bench with a torque wrench. They also coke the cylinder with oil because they have a hard time controlling oil (they smoke.) 400 Grit stones are great for a final finish using very light pressure and only a couple of strokes because it will help the surface finish without killing the Rz's (the depth.) To have any luck with a Total Seal ring whatsoever, you have to have clean honing oil, and you need to hone with a soft bonded 220 grit stone Like an EHU 518 at high pressure (60AMPS for you CK10 users). Then you finish with a soft bonded 280 grit stone like a JUH623 at still high pressure. If you must use a 400 grit afterwards (818 or 820), just kiss it with very light pressure for 3 strokes. THen clean with ATF then Lacquer thinner. Oil it with a reall light oil or Quick Seat. If you don't hone it like this, I assure you there will be problems just like others have reported even in this thread! A hone has to be deep to hold oil. A hone is a bearing area. If you hone light and with smooth stones, you won't have any bearing area and won't have oil retention, and the ring will wear FAST though it will be slow to seat. ALso, the harder the block material is, the softer the stone has to be for it to cut. This is why a stone used for honing a production block won't even scratch a Hard Sleeve or an aftermarket race block. You will find when you hone the way I have suggested, your motor will seal up instantly, you will have great oil control even with light oil (I hate 20W50 and so does GM) and low tension rings without vacuume pumps, you will make more power, and you will have a much longer running set of rings. Just look at Detroit. NONE of their cylinder finishes are smooth. They are very aggressive! Your 10,000 mile motor that was re honed and now having 10,000 miles on it, having almost no visible cross hatch, is almost surely a result of a very light cutting pressure with a fine stone.
The other thing you can't do if you want success is install the ring by hand. I.E. twisting it onto the piston. You have to expand it, or you will turn it into a lock washer, it will spin in the bore and it will also not be sealed in all areas because it is twisted. JUst disassemble the rings and inspect the wear pattern. You will see.
Have you checked the radial clearance between the ring and the ring land with a feeler guage? It should be no more than .002.
Shaun you are the man (hit the nail right on the head), i know you would and can explain this issue better than me. don`t you just love it, when people thinks engine building is just putting parts together, just to fine out they build a half a$$ smoke box....LOL. I don`t think people tear down has many engine has we did. you are right, engine technology changes every year (new car). this is way i/we wish the LC2 (TR motor) was design like the L67 (3800 s/c).
Here is our recipe for the total seal rings. We have done dozens of motors this way without a single problem. (These instructions are for the non-automotive machinist.)
What Shaun said seems to be on track to us although it is far more in depth for the average turbo buick enthusiast to follow. You can't give your automotive machinist that kind of instructions without offending him. That is why I suggest telling him to give you a plasma molly finish for the bores.
At assembly, whipe the cylinders with lacquer thinner and install the piston/ring assembly with only assembly lube on the skirt of the piston. The rings and bore are dry. No oil on them.
The motor we went 9.83 with at this year’s nats we built in 1998 and it has 20k mi on it without any freshening. It is the same motor we have always had in our car. It still seems to be competitive after all these years.
Dry install is the key.
What Shaun said seems to be on track to us although it is far more in depth for the average turbo buick enthusiast to follow. You can't give your automotive machinist that kind of instructions without offending him. That is why I suggest telling him to give you a plasma molly finish for the bores.
At assembly, whipe the cylinders with lacquer thinner and install the piston/ring assembly with only assembly lube on the skirt of the piston. The rings and bore are dry. No oil on them.
The motor we went 9.83 with at this year’s nats we built in 1998 and it has 20k mi on it without any freshening. It is the same motor we have always had in our car. It still seems to be competitive after all these years.
Dry install is the key.
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