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I don't want to register over there but review the rules and decide for yourself on whose car they were based. It's easy if you know who runs in the class.
 
Now,now boys.GSCA members that help run this board say there are no politics in GSCA racing so thats it:rolleyes:
 
Originally posted by John Larkin
I don't want to register over there but review the rules and decide for yourself on whose car they were based. It's easy if you know who runs in the class.

John, what does your comment have to do with who runs the class? The "facts" are it is a Turbo STREET stock class. The rules do not limit you, or anyone that wants to run the class, just do what the winners of the class do. There are no "special" items or parts not available to all.:confused:

You have this backwards, the car, or cars, have been built to fit the class. These are the people that give the input on the rules, that is true. If you go to the GSCA board, you will PLAINLY see how the rules are made and modified.

But if you have facts or documentation to back up your statement, let's have it.:)

As far as Broke1's statement, also please let us give us specific examples to back up your comment as well.
 
MMmmmm. Maybe. But what really strikes me as a little "eyebrow raising" is the strange block rules.

TSS (turbo street stock) yet allows a Stage I block

TSM (turbo street modified) yet requires the use of a stock 109 block.

Seems to me it should at least be the other way around. But hey, I have no business noticing such things since I'm not a participant.
 
Strange how critics "raise eyebrows" conviently on a specific item, but omit other significant requirements that go along with them.:confused:

A 3.8 stage block is allowed in TSS which also has a 240 cu.in. limit and no alum heads. Last I checked, power is made in the heads, not the block.

When the TSM class was established and brought to life a few years ago, it was SPECIFICALLY for 3.8 stock block competition. Other items/rules were hammered out by racers, not specifically GSCA members, and co-ordinated by Lonnie and Scott. They then presented this format to the GSCA and thus began the TSM series race event.
 
Originally posted by Nick Micale
Strange how critics "raise eyebrows" conviently on a specific item, but omit other significant requirements that go along with them.:confused:

A 3.8 stage block is allowed in TSS which also has a 240 cu.in. limit and no alum heads. Last I checked, power is made in the heads, not the block.

When the TSM class was established and brought to life a few years ago, it was SPECIFICALLY for 3.8 stock block competition. Other items/rules were hammered out by racers, not specifically GSCA members, and co-ordinated by Lonnie and Scott. They then presented this format to the GSCA and thus began the TSM series race event.

Thanks Nick.

Well, I could argue either "for" or "against" almost anything; Kerry, Bush, Beer, Sobriety, God, Atheism.

I am not an engine builder, but I have heard that the stage 1 block has webbing that is stronger and there is more nickel in the block. And I would think you can do more with having 12 bolt heads instead of 8.

To me, the question I have to ask is; "what is the purpose of the TSS class?". It seems to me it is the junior of the other classes (TSE, TSM and TSO). Meaning, more "entry level". More geared towards the "average Joe".

I personally don't know anyone that owns a stage block and it seems to me that turbo and head upgrades are more readily available then stage blocks.

You build engines; Do you think that "a Stage 1 block has no power advantages over a 109 block"?

(FWIW, I have heard of cars with stock, unported heads in the mid 10's.)
 
Originally posted by jsta6
Thanks Nick.

I am not an engine builder, but I have heard that the stage 1 block has webbing that is stronger and there is more nickel in the block. And I would think you can do more with having 12 bolt heads instead of 8.>>>>>>>>>>>>The heads only have 8 bolts holes so there is NO advantage for the 14 bolt block and the block itself makes no power.<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

To me, the question I have to ask is; "what is the purpose of the TSS class?". It seems to me it is the junior of the other classes (TSE, TSM and TSO). Meaning, more "entry level". More geared towards the "average Joe". >>>>>>>>>>>It is one of the oldest classes and the participants (like in TSM agree on the rules) and there used to be more than one car in the class that ran a stage block. There is likely only one car there now running one but that is because he chooses not to step the car up to the next class. When you start trying to go backwards with the rules you lose participants not gain them.... <<<<<<<<<<<<

I personally don't know anyone that owns a stage block and it seems to me that turbo and head upgrades are more readily available then stage blocks.

You build engines; Do you think that "a Stage 1 block has no power advantages over a 109 block"? >>>>>>>>>>The potential is there but NO the block will not make more power when limited to a stock appearing turbo.. I am going faster than all the cars in that class with a 109 block. Most people bypass TSS because it is so restrictive compared to TSM.. That is why I stepped up from TSS to TSM... <<<<<<<<<<<<

(FWIW, I have heard of cars with stock, unported heads in the mid 10's.)

My comments above for what it is worth. Dave
 
Originally posted by John Larkin
I don't want to register over there but review the rules and decide for yourself on whose car they were based. It's easy if you know who runs in the class.
John, I am also curious to know who might run a Stage block. I know there were only about 5 running the class this year. I also hope they allow alcohol injection like the TSM is considering also.
 
Red Armstrong runs a Stage I block.....

And no, the block itself isnt going to make the power BUT I bet a Stage I block will take alot more abuse(read more boost) than a 109.

And Nick,seems a few of the GSCA classes support Red A.
 
Originally posted by re-evaluating
My comments above for what it is worth. Dave

Thanks for your reply.

"block itself makes no power"

But isn't the stage block "stronger", and if the block is stronger, can you not make more power?

"When you start trying to go backwards with the rules you lose participants not gain them.... "

I disagree with that. And I would not call the move "backwards".

"The potential is there but NO the block will not make more power when limited to a stock appearing turbo"

I don't know if a 3 bolt turbo is the limiting factor now a days. They are more advanced then they were years ago.

"I am going faster than all the cars in that class with a 109 block."

Not sure what your point is here. Are you saying TSM cars with 109 blocks run faster then TSS cars with stage blocks? TSM allows front mount intercoolers, bigger turbos, fiberglass, aluminum heads, bigger throttle body, optional MAF, thumbwheell chips, TH400, aftermarket shifters, etc, etc.

"Most people bypass TSS because it is so restrictive compared to TSM.. That is why I stepped up from TSS to TSM... "

I think this might contradict your statement about how changing the rules in TSS will be a step "backwards".
 
My .02 on the block not making more power. Don't forget that stage 1 heads can be used on a stage 1 block and I'm quite sure that they will make more power.
Last I checked, power is made in the heads, not the block.
 
I only commented because I have been to the nats, seen some of the cars and this class interests me. It is my opinion only that I shared. I named no names but I did elect to restrict the field of view to those who register for the class. Going forward I will name no names but I do perceive by the very nature of the class' title that Turbo Street Stock is hardly stock. The rules, to me, appear to have a basis in design around a specific car's setup. Since I am building my car (quite slowly) I am having to conform to these rules myself. I don't agree with a few of them but I am willing to play the hand I am dealt. My disagreement is based on bulding a class determined by how many participants would not be excluded vs. what the class should be if it were designed from a blank page. What is street stock? Why would anyone even consider anything but a 109 production block, worst case a 484? Stage blocks never came in a production car to my knowledge. Stock = production = level playing field. Sure there are stage blocks available to anyone who can afford one but why would you build a street car with a race block and choke it with non-race heads? Again it is my opinion only.
 
Let me clarify

Originally posted by jsta6
Thanks for your reply.

But isn't the stage block "stronger", and if the block is stronger, can you not make more power?

Not when you are limited by such a small turbo. A stock block can easily handle the power that a 66 mm turbo can put out.

"When you start trying to go backwards with the rules you lose participants not gain them.... "

I disagree with that. And I would not call the move "backwards".

It is the same kind of move backwards as if they reduce the cubic inch of the engines in TSM as being discussed. Guys have spent money to build to the existing rules and then you pull the rug out that is going backwards in my opinion.

"The potential is there but NO the block will not make more power when limited to a stock appearing turbo"

I don't know if a 3 bolt turbo is the limiting factor now a days. They are more advanced then they were years ago.

yes but TSS is limited to a Garret TA stock housing and the biggest wheel that can fit within the rules is a 66 I believe.

"I am going faster than all the cars in that class with a 109 block."

Not sure what your point is here. Are you saying TSM cars with 109 blocks run faster then TSS cars with stage blocks? TSM allows front mount intercoolers, bigger turbos, fiberglass, aluminum heads, bigger throttle body, optional MAF, thumbwheell chips, TH400, aftermarket shifters, etc, etc.

Right so how is the stage block any power advantage? The stock block properly prepared will take all the abuse that a 66 turbo will give out is my point.

"Most people bypass TSS because it is so restrictive compared to TSM.. That is why I stepped up from TSS to TSM... "

I think this might contradict your statement about how changing the rules in TSS will be a step "backwards".

I don't see how taking a stage block out of the rules will change anything except cause any racer that has a TSS car with a stage block to have to spend a lot of money because you wanted to boot him out.. The block in NOT a limiting factor. I left TSS because I wanted to run a FAST system and they didn't want to go there so I stepped up. I agree I think the GSCA needs to allow some of the new technology in all around, but taking the stage block out won't change anything. Red can go just as fast with a 109 block as he can with a stage block.
 
stage one heads

Originally posted by L8R V8R
My .02 on the block not making more power. Don't forget that stage 1 heads can be used on a stage 1 block and I'm quite sure that they will make more power.

Yeap stage one heads can be used on a stage one block or on a stock block but there are still only 8 head bolts.. Yes I was running stage 1 heads on my stock block. Yes they will make more power so should they be outlawed also?
 
Thanks again for your reply.

"I don't see how taking a stage block out of the rules will change anything except cause any racer that has a TSS car with a stage block to have to spend a lot of money because you wanted to boot him out."

150lb weight penalty?
 
Re: stage one heads

Originally posted by re-evaluating
Yeap stage one heads can be used on a stage one block or on a stock block but there are still only 8 head bolts.. Yes I was running stage 1 heads on my stock block. Yes they will make more power so should they be outlawed also?

Red had 14-Bolt Heads on Janes car this year in BG....... ;)

Stage Blocks and 14-Bolt Stage I heads in a stock appearing class but you can't use a thumbwheel chip in the Stock computer?.....:rolleyes:
 
Hey Nick, since you said any of the parts for TSS anybody can get please let me know where to get the heads that Keith is talking about.
Thanks in advance, Kip
 
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