Tuning using WB or SD

[TurboSlacker]

So which is better for tuning: wideband or speed density?

Once dialed-in for a particular turbo buick, are they both just as good for street drivability and racing?

From my research it looks like both the TurboTweak SD chip and MAFTPro can tune with either the wideband system or the speed density system, right?

 

[norbs]

Both can use wide band, they are different types of input to the computer, SD or MAf there no other options. Wide band is the type of oxygen sensor that can be hooked up to the stock computer with a power logger. The mafTpro does not need a power logger to get the wide band signal into the ecu.

 

[BEATAV8]

I run the TTSD. It has wideband tracking, but I prefer not to use it. If the wideband has issues (and they often do), you could be running the car off bad wideband data. I use the wideband to tune and spot check my tune, but that's all.

 

[jasjamz]

I run the TTSD. It has wideband tracking, but I prefer not to use it. If the wideband has issues (and they often do), you could be running the car off bad wideband data. I use the wideband to tune and spot check my tune, but that's all.

Care to post a zip file of that log? Which Wideband are you using?

 

[TurboSlacker]

So you are using WB data to verify your state of tune but relying on SD programming to tell the computer how much fuel to add/remove.

With WB you would have to input what AFR you want to run but with SD it looks like there's nothing to tweak - it is what it is. Right?

 

[jasjamz]

So you are using WB data to verify your state of tune but relying on SD programming to tell the computer how much fuel to add/remove.

With WB you would have to input what AFR you want to run but with SD it looks like there's nothing to tweak - it is what it is. Right?

There are fuel and timing adjustments that can be made by the user in the SD or Chips with WB tracking. Lets take the Turbo Tweak 6.0 It has the ability to make fueling adjustments with the wideband tracking through the Power Logger. You program the AFR you desire and the computer will add and remove fuel by reading the WB to try to maintain the desired AFR. So you will need a Power Logger and a Wideband that works with the TT 6.0 chip. Visit the Turbo Tweak website to download instructions and learn more about both,

SD chips require alot more experience in tuning because the Mass Air Flow is not used. It has more adjustable parameters but is not for newbies.

 

[BEATAV8]

Care to post a zip file of that log? Which Wideband are you using?

Hehe... Jas you've seen too much already (darn locals!)
Next thing I know Brer Rabbit and the Doc will be studying my data and trying to learn something about Buicks.

I use Innovate stuff. I have both an LM1 and an LC1. Can't recall which was on the car when I took that file, probably the LM1. I was sluffing it along with pump gas and methanol.

Since it's old news I'll go ahead an post it up for ya.
On your PL display settings, use AEM gauge 0-5V transfer function for the AFR readout, and 3 bar MAP. Use 768 for MAF (not that this one matters much). After setting these items, load and open the data file.

 

[BEATAV8]

So you are using WB data to verify your state of tune but relying on SD programming to tell the computer how much fuel to add/remove.

With WB you would have to input what AFR you want to run but with SD it looks like there's nothing to tweak - it is what it is. Right?

I would say I use the wideband data to set my SD parameters. It's up to me to tell the SD chip how much fuel to use for idle, mid range, and WOT etc... It's very tweakable. The SD has an "option" for enabling the WB tracking, but I just leave that turned off. If I were to use that feature, I would set my base tune such the WB tracking would have to add a small amount of fuel in order to acheive it's desired set point. This way the integral term would be positive (adding fuel) when the engine experiences a transient condition such as an upshift. I've seen some fellas tune the other way, with a negative integral term. That causes a nasty lean-out on the upshifts

 

[TurboSlacker]

Much clearer, thanks

 

[Eric Stage I]

Speed density and a wideband O2 sensor are not comparable as tuning methods. Speed density is a method of calculating airflow to create the injector pulsewidth (as opposed to a MAF or alpha-N, etc). A wideband is a method of checking your air/fuel ratio after the fact.

Eric

 

[jasjamz]

Hehe... Jas you've seen too much already (darn locals!)
Next thing I know Brer Rabbit and the Doc will be studying my data and trying to learn something about Buicks.

I use Innovate stuff. I have both an LM1 and an LC1. Can't recall which was on the car when I took that file, probably the LM1. I was sluffing it along with pump gas and methanol.

Since it's old news I'll go ahead an post it up for ya.
On your PL display settings, use AEM gauge 0-5V transfer function for the AFR readout, and 3 bar MAP. Use 768 for MAF (not that this one matters much). After setting these items, load and open the data file.

Thanks. I see the MAF readings, and O2 vs WB data. Interesting!

 

[BEATAV8]

Thanks. I see the MAF readings, and O2 vs WB data. Interesting!

Jas, I just looked at that file again and realized it was not a TTSD file. It's an old extender extreme file. My bad...

 

[BEATAV8]

Jas,
Here's 2 files with the TTSD. I was working on the tune, so these are just short WOT hits. The first file has WOT fuel set to 133. The second it's set to 135 (more WOT fuel). You can see the difference in AFR between the two.

Use LC-1 wideband setting in your powerlogger console for these. And 3 bar MAP.

 

[TurboSlacker]

Speed density and a wideband O2 sensor are not comparable as tuning methods. Speed density is a method of calculating airflow to create the injector pulsewidth (as opposed to a MAF or alpha-N, etc). A wideband is a method of checking your air/fuel ratio after the fact.

Eric

Will tuning using a WB and TT Chip produce BETTER performance at the track and driveability on the street compared to my standard TT chip that I currently optimize state-of-tune by manually tweaking fuel parameters within the chip or does WB simply make tuning easier and perhaps more consistent?

In other words, what really would I gain by changing from my standard non-WB, non-SD TT chip to say a WB chip with WB sensor input? I have read quite a bit about WB and SD tuning on this board and vendor sites, but I'm still unclear if stepping up to a WB will benefit me (street driven periodically and 10 track passes a year).

Good discussion - thanks!

 

[Just a Six??]

Will tuning using a WB and TT Chip produce BETTER performance at the track and driveability on the street compared to my standard TT chip that I currently optimize state-of-tune by manually tweaking fuel parameters within the chip or does WB simply make tuning easier and perhaps more consistent?

In other words, what really would I gain by changing from my standard non-WB, non-SD TT chip to say a WB chip with WB sensor input? I have read quite a bit about WB and SD tuning on this board and vendor sites, but I'm still unclear if stepping up to a WB will benefit me (street driven periodically and 10 track passes a year).

Good discussion - thanks!

I am FAR from a pro like eric or half the guys here with this but here is why I use an XD-16 Guage with Powerlogger & latest TT chip. I have a Gen 2 & maf, the guage is always showing me where I am & alerts me to being too lean or rich. The info on PL is great to compare & watch frame by frame to see whats going on with small tweaks.
When I play it back for others they can help me tune a lot better with the added WB info.
Also, I really like the small guage thats easy to read.

 

[84BuickGNYorkPA]

Will tuning using a WB and TT Chip produce BETTER performance at the track and driveability on the street compared to my standard TT chip that I currently optimize state-of-tune by manually tweaking fuel parameters within the chip or does WB simply make tuning easier and perhaps more consistent?

In other words, what really would I gain by changing from my standard non-WB, non-SD TT chip to say a WB chip with WB sensor input? I have read quite a bit about WB and SD tuning on this board and vendor sites, but I'm still unclear if stepping up to a WB will benefit me (street driven periodically and 10 track passes a year).

Good discussion - thanks!

Well I had both the chips you are discussing, my reasons for stepping up to the TT SD was this.
First off, I wanted the MAF sensor off the car, one less thing to worry about going bad.
Second, if my motor is running lean going down the track(maybe the pump is going south) and I have a $160 chip that can add fuel to keep the motor happy, I'm there.
Yes great to tune with out wideband tracking and all, and you should be able to get it real close by adding or subtracting fuel, but I don't turn it off at the track. That's when, I need it the most as a safety net, it's there.... that being said if you are having wideband issues turn the wideband correction off in the chip. Other then adding some timing and tweaking the cold start idle my chip is very very close to being spot on. But with 18 adjustable parameters(I don't count the reset parameter) it's really hard to let my hands off it ...:wink:
I guess the bonus for having the chip is knowing that I'm in full controll of the car's tune (with Eric's chip). Like this morning, the roads where dry so I drove the Buick to work, as I started the car I realized that it should have the cold start parameter tweaked up a tick. Before I started the car up at work to come home I gave parameter #10, two ticks/counts up on fuel, then turned the key off for 3 seconds and started the car...... perfect idle, no more slight reving, then low idle..... smoothed right out.... nice product if you like to tinker...

Chuck