TURBO's and HOTAIR

[dr_frankenstein]

Ah!!! You have a calc program..........

I need one... but my DOD computer wont let me install.... cheese dicks.

Anywho...

Would you be interested in doing mine Jerry?

I have the specs from my Rotomaster

Turbine Wheel:
-Exducer Diameter: 2.53"
-Mayor Diameter: 2.91"

Compressor Wheel:
-Exducer Diameter: 2.72"
-Mayor Diameter: 3.58"

Turbine Housing:
-A/R: .68
-Type: Undivided
-Discharge: V-Band
-inlet: T4

Compressor housing:
-A/R: .70
-Air Inlet: 4.00"

A.j.

 

[Jerryl]

Ah!!! You have a calc program..........

I need one... but my DOD computer wont let me install.... cheese dicks.

Anywho...

Would you be interested in doing mine Jerry?

I have the specs from my Rotomaster

Turbine Wheel:
-Exducer Diameter: 2.53"
-Mayor Diameter: 2.91"

Compressor Wheel:
-Exducer Diameter: 2.72"
-Mayor Diameter: 3.58"

Turbine Housing:
-A/R: .68
-Type: Undivided
-Discharge: V-Band
-inlet: T4

Compressor housing:
-A/R: .70
-Air Inlet: 4.00"

A.j.

A.j.
Do you know what the wheel designation is?
The main thing is to get a hold of the compressor map.

 

[dr_frankenstein]

Im dumb.....

it may be an old skool turbo - but comparing it to a turbonetics catalog it almost exactly the same as there T70 just looks way different.

COMPRESSOR MAPS

Theres a link to the map,

Thanks jerry.... im gonna owe ya a 6 pack!

A.j.

 

[Jerryl]

Im dumb.....

it may be an old skool turbo - but comparing it to a turbonetics catalog it almost exactly the same as there T70 just looks way different.

COMPRESSOR MAPS

Theres a link to the map,

Thanks jerry.... im gonna owe ya a 6 pack!

A.j.

By the looks of it, the max most efficient boost = 32 PSI (PR3.22 - From Graph)
lbs/min 70 (From Graph)
Crank HP = 578 (Calculated, uncorrected)
CFM = 867 CFM (Uncorrected)
Looks to be good to about 6300 RPM @ 32 PSI

There are a lot of other questions to be answered to nail this down, even in theory.
Also, at some time (Based on calcs), you will be operating on the left side of the surge limit (No good!), untill you get up to boost/rpm.
So, the key is to calculate points on the graphs, based on the combo data(Boost/rpm/flow) and see which will be the best fit.

What is you HP/boost/rpm goal?
With or without alky?

 

[dr_frankenstein]

I dont have an official HP goal so whatever it makes it makes. but I should be able to support 650 atleast.

Boost, 15 to 25Lbs is what I wanted.
7200 RPM max -

Unsure about alky, but confirmed on liquid intercooler.

Hmm........ that ol'turbo might not be the best choice after all....... :frown:

A.j.

 

[Jerryl]

I dont have an official HP goal so whatever it makes it makes. but I should be able to support 650 atleast.

Boost, 15 to 25Lbs is what I wanted.
7200 RPM max -

Unsure about alky, but confirmed on liquid intercooler.

Hmm........ that ol'turbo might not be the best choice after all....... :frown:

A.j.

Not necessarily.
Temp will increase, but the density increase has MUCH greater benfits, plus, it wll shift the point to the right of the surge line.
Here are some examples with assumptions;

With IC
7200 RPM, 25 lbs boost, 78% compressor eff, 50% IC efficiency constant = 162 charge temps = 648 HP
7200 RPM, 25 lbs boost, 70% compressor eff, 50% IC efficiency constant= 165 charge temps = 634 HP

Without IC;
7200 RPM, 25 lbs boost, 78% compressor eff, No IC = 304 charge temps = 519 HP
7200 RPM, 25 lbs boost, 70% compressor eff, No IC = 330 charge temps = 501 HP

 

[dr_frankenstein]

Not necessarily.
Temp will increase, but the density increase has MUCH greater benfits, plus, it wll shift the point to the right of the surge line.
Here are some examples with assumptions;

With IC
7200 RPM, 25 lbs boost, 78% compressor eff, 50% IC efficiency constant = 162 charge temps = 648 HP
7200 RPM, 25 lbs boost, 70% compressor eff, 50% IC efficiency constant= 165 charge temps = 634 HP

Without IC;
7200 RPM, 25 lbs boost, 78% compressor eff, No IC = 304 charge temps = 519 HP
7200 RPM, 25 lbs boost, 70% compressor eff, No IC = 330 charge temps = 501 HP

Thank you for running the calculations for me Jerry! Your a Scholar & a Gentleman!


well, its not bad.... but its asking alot of the engine to keep up with it.... for my weight I dont need anything near that really. I think I might step it down a size or 2 depending on if I can find another Rotomaster or Rajay.... I would prefer to stay aganst the norm.

BUT>>>>>>>>>>

I have a TE66 that has been calling me to use for a long long time, looks like I might have to pull it out.

would it be wrong to build a high 9 to low 10 sec capable engine so i can run mid 11s all day with the A/C on??? maybe....

A.j.

 

[Jerryl]

Thank you for running the calculations for me Jerry! Your a Scholar & a Gentleman!

well, its not bad.... but its asking alot of the engine to keep up with it.... for my weight I dont need anything near that really. I think I might step it down a size or 2 depending on if I can find another Rotomaster or Rajay.... I would prefer to stay aganst the norm.

BUT>>>>>>>>>>

I have a TE66 that has been calling me to use for a long long time, looks like I might have to pull it out.

would it be wrong to build a high 9 to low 10 sec capable engine so i can run mid 11s all day with the A/C on??? maybe....

A.j.

A.j.
Hope it helps!
I learned a LOT from studying John Estill’s work and writings in the past years.
His articles are used in MANY other writings.
We are very blessed to have him share his knowledge.

Normally, I do not give this kind of feedback to HA conversions in this forum, but I threw it in there.
Also, I did not want to water down the thread since the OP was interested in charge temperature feedback.
Sorry Brent. :frown:

 

[dr_frankenstein]

good point Jerry. Your right, im not HA.........Im Carbed

MY Bad for hi-jacking......... so so sorry

I need the rest of u guys to cut me short!

:biggrin: A.j.

 

[charlief1]

LOL Aj, look at the first post in 2002.:biggrin: Jerryl was nice enough to bring it back for us to read. Ok Jerryl. here's thi info I have.

Going from a a turbo with a .42 ar intake housing (aireasearch m11 housing), a 46.mm wheel, an inlet of 46.72mm, and an exhaust ar of .82, a wheel 46.97mm, and an outlet of 48.64mm.

Going to an intake housing with a .60 (aireasearch m 10 housing), a wheel 53mm,and in inlet 54.13 and an exhaust housing with a .63ar, a wheel that's 51.mm, and outlet of 51.33mm

 

[Boost231]

Ok, did some diggin' ....... The TA54 has a 60-1 trim wheel.
Here you go.



If you can tell me the wheel size, I can try.
Otherwise, I am not sure.

The output and efficiencies are very dependant on A/R and other factors as well.
The same wheel in a different housing will act very differently, and that is NOT taken into account.

thanks man, now with this data how do i use it? my car has as big cam so it likes to rev. top end of the track im @ 6000

 

[Jerryl]

thanks man, now with this data how do i use it? my car has as big cam so it likes to rev. top end of the track im @ 6000

First off, I am no expert on turbochargers; I just gained some understanding and appreciation for the basics.
One of the BEST guys when it comes to turbochargers is Patrick, the mod of the turbo section.

I started this turbo study journey, because no one (vendors) wanted to talk to me about “Hot Air Turbo’s” other than the TA33.
Too small of a market, too big of a headache.
So I had to read, study, etc to make informed decisions instead of throwing $$$ at it.
Anyway …………

Well, it appears that that wheel is “out of breath” around 23 PSI for the 60lb/min flow mark based on the compressor map.
You will also notice that that the wheel rpm is very close to it’s max of 120,000 RPM.
Did some additional in-depth sampling analysis based on the question.

For the 60-1 Trim wheel;
Calculated compensated flow requirement is 796 ACFM at 58.8 lbs/min @ 23 PSI boost, based on 6000 RPM, 200F intake temp constant, 70% wheel efficiency, 231CI motor
It appears that this set-up will run to the right of the map, but, the map should only be used as a guideline in the selection process as there are too many variables that affect the map.
When I ran the numbers, it appears that this set-up should produce close to a calculated 11.98@113 in a 3500lb car.

The TA49 has been rated at BOTH 545 (Precision) and 475 (Limit) ..... I have some ideas “why” (In my head)
Looking at it more closely; TA49 uses the same wheel as the TA33, a 60 trim
If you look at the posted map, is appears that this wheel is out of breath around the 19PSI, but, real life test data indicates the sweet spot to be 23 PSI or 2.65 PR
Sure, you can run this turbo to 23 PSI, but, it puts the requirements placed on the wheel/turbo "off the map" but the TA49 has gone faster than anyone imagined it ever could at much higher boost pressures! I doubt it is an "off the shelf TA49" ....... There has got to be HP secrets there, and no doubt an AWESOME tune!

Over the years, it has often been stated that the “rule of thumb” is 1lbs/min=10 hp.
You can see this is why the TA54 is rated around the 610 HP mark.
But there is more to that. Charge temperature for this application will affect lb/min, so on a HA you need a BIG turbo since hot air takes up more volume.

This is why many many moons ago Lee Thompson stated;
“A turbo is big enough when you can’t close the hood”

Clear as mud right??? :wink:

 

[Jerryl]

LOL Aj, look at the first post in 2002.:biggrin: Jerryl was nice enough to bring it back for us to read. Ok Jerryl. here's thi info I have.

Going from a a turbo with a .42 ar intake housing (aireasearch m11 housing), a 46.mm wheel, an inlet of 46.72mm, and an exhaust ar of .82, a wheel 46.97mm, and an outlet of 48.64mm.

Going toan intake housing with a .60 (aireasearch m 10 housing), a wheel 53mm,and in inlet 54.13 and an exhaust housing with a .63ar, a wheel that's 51.mm, and outlet of 51.33mm

Charlie,
53mm does not sound that big though ......... I am pretty sure the TA33 has a 59mm turbine inducer. You will definately gain efficiency with the larger A/R on both sides.

Sorry man ....... will need the compressor map.
I'll try to look it up this weekend, but, no prmises, unless I find the map.
Contact Patrick (Mod in the turbo section) to determine the wheel designation, and we can go from there.

 

[dr_frankenstein]

LOL Aj, look at the first post in 2002.:biggrin: Jerryl was nice enough to bring it back for us to read. Ok Jerryl. here's thi info I have.

Going from a a turbo with a .42 ar intake housing (aireasearch m11 housing), a 46.mm wheel, an inlet of 46.72mm, and an exhaust ar of .82, a wheel 46.97mm, and an outlet of 48.64mm.

Going to an intake housing with a .60 (aireasearch m 10 housing), a wheel 53mm,and in inlet 54.13 and an exhaust housing with a .63ar, a wheel that's 51.mm, and outlet of 51.33mm

LOL.... sorry.... I didnt mention i have ADD like a crazy huh? I do.

:biggrin: A.j.

 

[charlief1]

Thanks Jerry. I started doing the mods for the turbo for the same reson as you did. No one offers a different turbo for a carb/turbo set up and they need more. If you havent seen my post in the before black section you might want to see what I'm up to. Rich of course po-po'd it but now that Aj relized what I was up to he'll probibly beat me to the punch since we've been cutting back at work.

 

[Boost231]

First off, I am no expert on turbochargers; I just gained some understanding and appreciation for the basics.
One of the BEST guys when it comes to turbochargers is Patrick, the mod of the turbo section.

I started this turbo study journey, because no one (vendors) wanted to talk to me about “Hot Air Turbo’s” other than the TA33.
Too small of a market, too big of a headache.
So I had to read, study, etc to make informed decisions instead of throwing $$$ at it.
Anyway …………

Well, it appears that that wheel is “out of breath” around 23 PSI for the 60lb/min flow mark based on the compressor map.
You will also notice that that the wheel rpm is very close to it’s max of 120,000 RPM.
Did some additional in-depth sampling analysis based on the question.

For the 60-1 Trim wheel;
Calculated compensated flow requirement is 796 ACFM at 58.8 lbs/min @ 23 PSI boost, based on 6000 RPM, 200F intake temp constant, 70% wheel efficiency, 231CI motor
It appears that this set-up will run to the right of the map, but, the map should only be used as a guideline in the selection process as there are too many variables that affect the map.
When I ran the numbers, it appears that this set-up should produce close to a calculated 11.98@113 in a 3500lb car.

The TA49 has been rated at BOTH 545 (Precision) and 475 (Limit) ..... I have some ideas “why” (In my head)
Looking at it more closely; TA49 uses the same wheel as the TA33, a 60 trim
If you look at the posted map, is appears that this wheel is out of breath around the 19PSI, but, real life test data indicates the sweet spot to be 23 PSI or 2.65 PR
Sure, you can run this turbo to 23 PSI, but, it puts the requirements placed on the wheel/turbo "off the map" but the TA49 has gone faster than anyone imagined it ever could at much higher boost pressures! I doubt it is an "off the shelf TA49" ....... There has got to be HP secrets there, and no doubt an AWESOME tune!

Over the years, it has often been stated that the “rule of thumb” is 1lbs/min=10 hp.
You can see this is why the TA54 is rated around the 610 HP mark.
But there is more to that. Charge temperature for this application will affect lb/min, so on a HA you need a BIG turbo since hot air takes up more volume.

This is why many many moons ago Lee Thompson stated;
“A turbo is big enough when you can’t close the hood”

Clear as mud right??? :wink:

ok, so with this being said i have gone 11.74 @ 20psi (average) i was having boost creep issues top of 3rd when it reves out past 5,500 in thrid. im going to an external gate now to correct this. anyways on this pass i was at 16.3psi@3,700rpm in first then it would boost creep up to 25psi @6000 rpms at the top end. now we will see what happens once i get my external gate on. anyways at 16.3psi in first my intake temps where 146 deg. then they just climb right on up. 2nd gear at 5,200rpm im at 200 deg. then @ 5,500 in third my sensor is maxed out at 255 deg. @ 24psi i have XFI logs of this. anyways im wondering if going to a bigger exhaust housing will be better for me? i plan to run around 25-28psi from first gear till the traps. i got an AMS500 to control this with a new tial gate. should work well and improve et's.

O also these #'s are after a 15min cool down. i have #'s from the log before that are alittle better on temps. the run before i was at the traps when it hit 255 deg. at 5,900 rpms @ 24psi. this run was just a hair slower then the run above but yet the intake temps on this run where cooler. anyways what do you think?

 

[Boostnitup]

TA-33 and a shot of nitrous

It works...

 

[Jerryl]

ok, so with this being said i have gone 11.74 @ 20psi (average) i was having boost creep issues top of 3rd when it reves out past 5,500 in thrid. im going to an external gate now to correct this. anyways on this pass i was at 16.3psi@3,700rpm in first then it would boost creep up to 25psi @6000 rpms at the top end. now we will see what happens once i get my external gate on. anyways at 16.3psi in first my intake temps where 146 deg. then they just climb right on up. 2nd gear at 5,200rpm im at 200 deg. then @ 5,500 in third my sensor is maxed out at 255 deg. @ 24psi i have XFI logs of this. anyways im wondering if going to a bigger exhaust housing will be better for me? i plan to run around 25-28psi from first gear till the traps. i got an AMS500 to control this with a new tial gate. should work well and improve et's.

O also these #'s are after a 15min cool down. i have #'s from the log before that are alittle better on temps. the run before i was at the traps when it hit 255 deg. at 5,900 rpms @ 24psi. this run was just a hair slower then the run above but yet the intake temps on this run where cooler. anyways what do you think?

I forgot you run race gas, so, I adjusted the BSFC and the calculator indicates 11.73. Close enough for government work. :tongue:
If I recalculate at 28PSI boost, it tells me 121 mph @5800 rpm with 200F charge temps.

Not sure why it ran slower with cooler temps, but there are lots of other factors that could have been the cause, i.e; Baro changes, humidity, headwind, converter slip, 60', etc. so, can't answer that. They all add up.
What do I really think? "You will go 10's."

 

[Boost231]

I forgot you run race gas, so, I adjusted the BSFC and the calculator indicates 11.73. Close enough for government work. :tongue:
If I recalculate at 28PSI boost, it tells me 121 mph @5800 rpm with 200F charge temps.

Not sure why it ran slower with cooler temps, but there are lots of other factors that could have been the cause, i.e; Baro changes, humidity, headwind, converter slip, 60', etc. so, can't answer that. They all add up.
What do I really think? "You will go 10's."

10's in time my friend. i think the slower time was from the 60 foot as well. i also need to turn up the timing. still running 19deg

 

[dr_frankenstein]

I agree that you should step up on the A/R size Boost231. I think the reduction in back pressure would help alot.

I imagine that the reduction in boost that might be incurred from increasing the A/R on the hotside would be an indicator of increased flow....

This is why you didnt pick up any speed when the temps dropped in the post you had above..... the air was cool and dense enough for more potential engine HP gain, but the engine was already bottle necked and thus couldnt physically produce anymore power.

OR something along that path is slowing the flow. But you did say you had boost creep issues, which strongly leads me to believe that the housing is to small.


A.j.