What Does "Tuning" Mean To You?
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RmvBfrFlght
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Tuning is a full vehicle experience. By this I mean that it just isn't WOT, but items such as cold, warm & hot start, TCC lockup and unlock points, tip-in, decel, getting the closed loop proportional gains correct. Smooth idle with good drive-ability. There is a lot to getting a street tune correct.
> For example, What are the various ways to correct a lean condition?
If every thing else is OK (BLMs, fuel pressure, etc) then with a speed density system such as the EBL SFI-6, need to add fuel via the VE table when under 100 KPa MAP, and use the boost fuel multiplier table to add to the injector PW when above 100 KPa.
When starting out with a new tune I generally concentrate on getting the low load and drive-ability stuff down first. Making sure that it hot starts in your driveway is better then it not wanting to hot start at the gas station.
Then for boost, go slow, give it a little boost, then stop and double check things. Then if OK a little more boost, and so on. Start with conservative spark advance, get the fueling in line first.
Can't cover everything in one post, need many to do that. Even the TCC logic needs a full write up to explain.
RemoveBeforeFight
> For example, What are the various ways to correct a lean condition?
If every thing else is OK (BLMs, fuel pressure, etc) then with a speed density system such as the EBL SFI-6, need to add fuel via the VE table when under 100 KPa MAP, and use the boost fuel multiplier table to add to the injector PW when above 100 KPa.
When starting out with a new tune I generally concentrate on getting the low load and drive-ability stuff down first. Making sure that it hot starts in your driveway is better then it not wanting to hot start at the gas station.
Then for boost, go slow, give it a little boost, then stop and double check things. Then if OK a little more boost, and so on. Start with conservative spark advance, get the fueling in line first.
Can't cover everything in one post, need many to do that. Even the TCC logic needs a full write up to explain.
RemoveBeforeFight
TurboTnZ06
Go on red!
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- May 7, 2002
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First step is to always verify that everything is working correctly at idle. I look for dead spots in my TPS with the alky/engine off on my scanmaster before making a run. I look at A/F, battery volt, etc, before making a run. Often, I run through every parameter in my scanmaster just to go to the store on an errand. I've double checked sensors, such as electric vs mech fuel pressure gauge, run mech and elec oil pressure gauges at the same time to check those. Then after a run, take a look at all the values in the powerlogger run and look for anything that is out of normal like, injector duty cycle, A/F, BLM, KR, etc. If there's no KR, add boost, but don't add boost and add timing at the same time. Just change one thing at a time.
A great way to check for lean coming from the fuel supply is to log fuel pressure on a logger at WOT with injector duty cycle and a wideband O2 plotted together.
I haven't had a lean condition since installing a Weldon 1100 and custom -8 feed and -6 return lines
A great way to check for lean coming from the fuel supply is to log fuel pressure on a logger at WOT with injector duty cycle and a wideband O2 plotted together.
I haven't had a lean condition since installing a Weldon 1100 and custom -8 feed and -6 return lines
turbofabricator
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"Tuning" is a process that involves many many different processes. Some are:
1) Reading spark plugs (very important and takes may years to learn how to do correctly)
2) Listening to the tone of the engine and trying different tweaks to learn that sweet spot of the tone
3) monitoring oxygen sensor output. Wide band aftermarket sensors are better than the stock one, but the stock one does work
4) Hire Cal Hartline to tune it for you. (easiest and maybe even cheapest)
5) Look at the remains of a blown head gasket or parts to figure out what happened ("After-the-Fact Tuning")
6) boost gauge reading
7) BLM
8) TPS
9) Knock sensor
Are you seriously asking what the proper tuning parameters are or are you trying to stir the pot? Really? JM, I've talked to you on the phone and will help if I can, but if you are just airing dirty laundry, Yellowbullet might be a better site to hang out on. It is full of bantering and is alot of fun for some folks.
Grumpy has been at this performance thing alot longer than I have. I have been around some BRILLIANT tuners in my life that make me feel ignorant. (the more I learn the dumber I feel) He has been there and done that in the 60's. Someone to listen (carefully) to. We use to have a tuner come in and tune our nitrous system on our 5,000hp V12's. He would stare at the spark plugs with a magnifier for at least 5 minutes each. (24 plugs) before he ever made an adjustment. Some stuff just can't be taught, it has to be learned. You have to be a student of horsepower. Plain and simple if you want to get the most out of it all. There is alot of good info on the web, and a TON of crud.
Yes tuning is where it's at. Combination of parts and adjusting them to work on your car is everything. If you want to make a million dollars............Don't ask someone that has made a half a million.
Fuel pressure adjusting will make minor adjustments to the A/F ratio. Injector and chip changes will make large A/F ratio changes. O2 readings and spark plug reading will determine the direction you need to go. Turbo Tweak chips have tuning abilities with them, too.
Spark advance it critical to these engines, too. You want to run lean and more ignition advance for the first 60 ft. then you NEED to dump the fuel to it and pull timing. What and how much is dependant on many factors. Trying to explain all the needs and adjustments on a tune up are almost impossible in a post. It's years of trial and error that makes a good tuner. Some guys are just naturally good at it. Small steps so you don't blow it up. If you are making 125+ HP per cylinder things happen REAL fast and violently.
1) Reading spark plugs (very important and takes may years to learn how to do correctly)
2) Listening to the tone of the engine and trying different tweaks to learn that sweet spot of the tone
3) monitoring oxygen sensor output. Wide band aftermarket sensors are better than the stock one, but the stock one does work
4) Hire Cal Hartline to tune it for you. (easiest and maybe even cheapest)
5) Look at the remains of a blown head gasket or parts to figure out what happened ("After-the-Fact Tuning")
6) boost gauge reading
7) BLM
8) TPS
9) Knock sensor
Are you seriously asking what the proper tuning parameters are or are you trying to stir the pot? Really? JM, I've talked to you on the phone and will help if I can, but if you are just airing dirty laundry, Yellowbullet might be a better site to hang out on. It is full of bantering and is alot of fun for some folks.
Grumpy has been at this performance thing alot longer than I have. I have been around some BRILLIANT tuners in my life that make me feel ignorant. (the more I learn the dumber I feel) He has been there and done that in the 60's. Someone to listen (carefully) to. We use to have a tuner come in and tune our nitrous system on our 5,000hp V12's. He would stare at the spark plugs with a magnifier for at least 5 minutes each. (24 plugs) before he ever made an adjustment. Some stuff just can't be taught, it has to be learned. You have to be a student of horsepower. Plain and simple if you want to get the most out of it all. There is alot of good info on the web, and a TON of crud.
Yes tuning is where it's at. Combination of parts and adjusting them to work on your car is everything. If you want to make a million dollars............Don't ask someone that has made a half a million.
Fuel pressure adjusting will make minor adjustments to the A/F ratio. Injector and chip changes will make large A/F ratio changes. O2 readings and spark plug reading will determine the direction you need to go. Turbo Tweak chips have tuning abilities with them, too.
Spark advance it critical to these engines, too. You want to run lean and more ignition advance for the first 60 ft. then you NEED to dump the fuel to it and pull timing. What and how much is dependant on many factors. Trying to explain all the needs and adjustments on a tune up are almost impossible in a post. It's years of trial and error that makes a good tuner. Some guys are just naturally good at it. Small steps so you don't blow it up. If you are making 125+ HP per cylinder things happen REAL fast and violently.
"Are you seriously asking what the proper tuning parameters are or are you trying to stir the pot? Really? JM, I've talked to you on the phone and will help if I can, but if you are just airing dirty laundry, Yellowbullet might be a better site to hang out on. It is full of bantering and is alot of fun for some folks."
I'm not a Yellowbullet kind of guy. No time for that type of goofing off. My post is serious. I've hit a wall & can't seem to figure it out. I was hoping this post would evolve into something that new owners/tuners could refer to & help them. My goal is positive progress & no BS.
Thank you
~JM~
I'm not a Yellowbullet kind of guy. No time for that type of goofing off. My post is serious. I've hit a wall & can't seem to figure it out. I was hoping this post would evolve into something that new owners/tuners could refer to & help them. My goal is positive progress & no BS.
Thank you
~JM~
What do you mean? Could you please elaborate?
I believe I'm at a point that I'm not able to make further progress until my lean condition is either resolved or determined to be normal for this car.
Thank you
~JM~
turbofabricator
Well-Known Member
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- Mar 7, 2004
- Messages
- 4,261
John,
Post your parameters so we can walk you through it. O2, BLM/INT, boost, fuel pressure, fuel octane and quality, what spark plugs, fuel pump, and anything else that has you concerned in detail, then we can help. A complet list of parts will set the stage for tuning parameters. A session on a chassis dyno with professional tuning help is many times the way to go.
Also post what you have tried to do to make it run better and what the results were. Be careful on tune-up or it'll ruin some high dollar parts in a nano second.
Post your parameters so we can walk you through it. O2, BLM/INT, boost, fuel pressure, fuel octane and quality, what spark plugs, fuel pump, and anything else that has you concerned in detail, then we can help. A complet list of parts will set the stage for tuning parameters. A session on a chassis dyno with professional tuning help is many times the way to go.
Also post what you have tried to do to make it run better and what the results were. Be careful on tune-up or it'll ruin some high dollar parts in a nano second.
TURBOPOWERED68
David
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i am trying to learn my self but from what i have seen and been told by other people after looking at my logs.
Tuning to me is paying "Attention to ALL the details" and an art form, some can do it and some cannot - unfortunately for me i cannot.
BTW My car was/is leaning out (i was maxing out the ALKY system and going lean)
i think i have it narrowed down to low voltage on the car and/or a bad fuel pump..
Fuel pump is coming soon. then to work on the electrical issue IF there is one
Pronto
No amount of evidence will ever persuade an idiot.
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In reference to your other thread, you need to find out why you are seeing low O2s mv on the Scanmaster. In a properly running TB, your O2s should be not lean with your mods and a TT chip basic tune burned for your mods. You got something else going on and until that is resolved you will not be able to refine the TT tune. TT chips are damn close 99% of the time. I've run 4 and I know of at least 4 other cars that have a TT chip that was burned for the cars mods and each one run very well. It wasn't until going to the track and looking for more hp that we have tweaked them. I do not consider myself any kind of "tuner" but with paying attention to the SM numbers (writing them down b/f turning off the engine) and later with the Powerlogger you can see relationships between boost/fueling/timing/knock/weather, etc. Adding or subtracting small amounts of the adjustable parameters is really the only thing you can do to "tune" a TT chip yourself unless you go for the SD chip which adds more things to play with. It does take time to build up the data and only make small changes. First and formost your car must be running correctly.
I have not kept a log of my readings. I posted them here once before & all was well at idle. The basic issue is O2's in the low to sometimes mid 700 range at WOT. The car is wrapped up for the winter right now so I can't really go out & fire it off.
Here are the readings from that old post.
O2 812
KR 0
AF 04
L8 29
bat 14.1
INT 128
BL 138
MPH 0
CLT 167
ATS 52
RPM 800
TPS .44
IAC 41
cc 75
MAL 0
My vacuum gauge is showing 18" at idle.
I'm surprised to see that the O2's look normal during these readings.
Here was the last post on how the car was running. http://turbobuick.com/forums/threads/finally.372268/
I have the waste-gate limited to 16#
I recently installed a new adj. FPR & have increased the base pressure to 45# to see if that would richen it up. It hasn't.
Fuel is 76 Premium @ 92 octane (TT chip burned for 92 also)
E3 Plugs
Walbro pump with Racetronix Hotwire
Drivetrain is basically stock. Engine has TT chip & Accel 30# injectors. I have improved breathing with an open element filter on the end of the MAF. MAF has 1 screen inside. I recently installed an RJC FMIC that caused an over-boost situation. That has been resolved with an adj. waste gate actuator. I have lightly de-burred or removed any casting flash on turbo inlet/outlet (this was done when I originally ported my SLIC inlet.)
I have a 3" DP & a dual 2.5" exhaust system that I will be installing. I believe this may cause me to lean out even more.
I have adjusted the fueling with the chip, but later learned that feature does not work with 30# inj's. I have replaced the FPR recently to an adjustable unit & increased base pressure a couple lbs. No change in O2's. My next plan is to order a new chip & 60# inj combo to see if this will resolve the situation.
Thank you
~JM~
Pronto
No amount of evidence will ever persuade an idiot.
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Do your CCs move quickly from 0 to 255 while driving around normal?
I don't know. I've never really watched the CC's. I've mainly watched O2's & temperature.
What would this tell me?
Thank you
~JM~
this is a great thread and im gonna follow it. for example... i built my entire car myself. it was an na conversion car. im a career tech and a shop owner. i can put it all together and make it run. i have a fast system that im trying to learn how to use and a i also do not completly understand how to alter my tune. ive worked on cars all of my adult life but it was always about getting it back to the factory preset values and walla-fixed.(well.theres alot more to it than that but...) im trying to learn also how to go and make timing ,fuel,boost,and tweek things to mesh together and work. its actually not easy even for me who knows more than alot of people. most of the guys on here that are really good at that are not even mechanics by trade. MY HAT IS OFF TO THEM-AMAZING.ive made some great friends on here and at the track so that for me is a huge part of my attraction to these cars. and now i have two in less than 2 years. WTF (smile.)its funny this question was brought up,ive really been thinking this same question to myself over the last week.
QWKRNU1009
Member
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Great question and thread. I'm subscribing. Always willing to learn myself
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First and foremost it is hardware selection, then function, then software and calibration.
Pronto
No amount of evidence will ever persuade an idiot.
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The CCs will tell you how well the O2 is functioning. If it slow or hangs at means the O2 is not working right.
I just finished re-reading my Scanmaster instructions & the part on cross counts. Should advance 10-20 digits every time the SM refreshes. I will pay more attention to the CC's for now on.
Thanks
~JM~
