what the hell is wrong with people?!

[QuickWE4]

No offense taken and none was meant by my post either. Bad day at work today for me and I'm just venting.

Actually, I do enjoy these lively discussions, and discussions about religion are always lively. Furthermore, everybody is entitled to their opinion. I don't agree with you and you don't agree with me, but that's what makes the world go around I guess.

Rich

 

[MissingMyBuick]

This is my first "lively discussion" I have ever had on the internet. Very different from what I am used to. I agree, we have to agree to disagree. Hopefully you won't hold a grudge against me.

I hope the rest of your day is much happier.

 

[QuickWE4]

Nah...I'm turning 30 this month so I'm a little down in the dumps and b*tchy.

But I've decided to celebrate my birthday for the entire month of October. I figure that I can fit in enough debauchery to make up for the fact that I'll no longer be in my "twenties" after this month.

Rich

 

[turbosam6]

Hey my birthday is coming up in less than 2 weeks too. 10/13, whens yours?

Anyway, no offense taken, but seriously, its pretty bold to say that theres no other way we got here except for god. Theres a lot of evidence to support evolution, and I believe what I can see. Look at the evolutionary chart, its pretty believable. Theres no scientific evidence that god exists, or that he created anything. Its cool if you want to believe that, its your right. I envy you for having the beliefs you do, honestly, because I feel we are very much on our own. It would be nice to believe theres god to catch you when you fall, or to believe in heaven, but I just can't. One of my good friends is a religious man, christian, and he always says things like "God wanted it to be like this" or, "God did this for a reason". I'm like "Dude, you hit a tree with your car cuz you suck at driving".

Actually, my grandfather is a minister as well, and he doesn't make hardly any money, and is one of the "good" ministers, not greedy, or pushy. I didn't mean to sound like all ministers or preachers are bad, I know some are good and do a lot for society. I guess I get mad because I work in all kinds of buildings, church's, business, homes, and I see the blatant abuse of power these bad ministers use. They drive very nice cars, live in very nice homes, spend way too much on things for themselves, etc. I feel like they do it for the wrong reasons, so they don't have to get a real job, or pay taxes. It makes me sick, they are so greedy. I also notice some people use church to show status, like going to church to show off their money with big donations, or to show off fancy new clothes, cars, jewelry, just because they know their neighbors will be there too to see it.

Striker29, I see what your saying as far as the donation thing, but would it not be better and more constructive if we gave our time, instead of money? Like volunteer work? I would think that would help your spiritual growth more than handing over a 20 dollar bill.

No hard feelings here, I enjoy debates like this. Everyone has a right to their opinion, and on this subject, the only way to find out who's right is to die and see for yourself.

I'm interested to know your thoughts on evolution and the history behind it, Missingmybuick. And why is it people have souls but animals do not?

 

[QuickWE4]

Originally posted by turbosam6
Hey my birthday is coming up in less than 2 weeks too. 10/13, whens yours?

Anyway, no offense taken, but seriously, its pretty bold to say that theres no other way we got here except for god. Theres a lot of evidence to support evolution, and I believe what I can see. Look at the evolutionary chart, its pretty believable. Theres no scientific evidence that god exists, or that he created anything. ... And why is it people have souls but animals do not?

October 20th man!

Yeah, I mean, I kinda fall down on the whole Darwinian/Big Bang theory myself, but heck, that's just my opinion.

And you're right about the whole question of "souls". In fact, let me extend that one to the notion of "reasoning" - who's to say that a dolphin can't reason? Funny thing is, people (like me) that subscribe to similar notions of creation and such don't believe anything has a "soul" in the first place.

Missingmybuick - not piling on here - don't take it that way. This topic always spurs discussion.

Personally, I'm more interested in this thread than the one that was floating around about Gray Davis. Oh puhleeze with that already


Damnit TurboSam6, I thought I was all calm and then you had to make some salient points and get me going again

Rich

 

[Pronto]

Gee, doctor asisted suicide happens everyday by the hundreds. Doctors prescibe liquid morphine to terminally ill patients and send them home from the hospital to be cared for by their families and hospice. The families administer the morphine according to the the "discomfort" of the patient. Families give more and more until the very ill patient's body shuts down and they go into a coma and die. I see nothing wrong with this. The patients are dying and will at least be able to die at home at peace with their family and people of their faith.
My father died of brain cancer 8 years ago so I know the drill. Anyone that dares says my dad is in HELL because of this is a **cking a$$hole that I will personally tear off their arm and beat them to death with.

 

[turbosam6]

Yeah, I don't see anything wrong with suicide, at least in cases like that. If you want to die, its your right. I've watched my best friends mom go through the same scenario Pronto, its hard to watch, but even if theres no heaven or hell, it was time to go and be rid of the pain. I think its easier to miss someone than it is to watch them suffer.

I'm far from an expert on evolution, or religion, or anything for that matter, but I like facts. I need proof for anything, just how I am. I guess after being dissapointed so many times in life, you start to question everything and have doubts about everything. Once you see something with your own eyes, you know its true. My friend I spoke of earlier swears he met the devil or something once, like not a being, but a feeling. I think he's had so many problems in life that God is his crutch, since most of the problems were very much out of his hands. Its good he believes this, it gives him hope. Like I said, I'd like to believe, but its just too difficult to place blind faith in anything. I get excited when I hear about news like when they thought they found the arc, or artifacts from Jesus himself. Its important to remember, man wrote the bible, not god or Jesus. I could write a book today and call it a bible, but no one would believe me. They'd say I was crazy, most likely.

 

[TurboMike]

of course i have alot of replies but really don't have the time right now, but will do so later.

Just a quick question, does anyone remember the very deep (and civilized) debates concerning religion and the exsistence of God that we had on here that went on for about a month? It was a couple years ago i think. Anyone remember...just curious.

 

[GRAYGHOST]

Well now, my very own statement will lead me to do some research. I have made some calls as I am far from an expert on the Bible, and have been given information pertaining to suicdes that took place in the Bible, however I have found no information as to the outcome there after. So, I retract my statement that suicide = a way ticket to hell for now. And by the way, the statement was not intended to offend anyone..... I have always understood suicide was a sin, and sin sends you to hell. Now, obviously, if you repent your sins, you can be saved. My big question about that is how do you repent after you kill yourself. It's kind of like the only sin you can make and not have the chance to repent afterward.



I do believe if someone has a mental problem, or unbearable illness that drives them to that there should be consideration.

Call in the preachers!!!!!!!!

 

[GRAYGHOST]

The main reason why people like ME don't subscribe to a particular religion is because of people like YOU.



Rich [/B]

I think you do what you do because that is what you want to do, not because of what someone else does....

Not trying to bash at all here, but it is disturbing to think that you don't want to at least challenge what could be your salvation just because somebody has an opinion you don't like.

 

[GRAYGHOST]

If you believe and repent of your sins and ask Jesus to be your own personal savior that your sins are forgiven, ALL sins, past, present, future.

http://www.encounterwithchrist.org/materials/tps/06.html [/B]

So what your saying is, I can repent of my sins, and my future sins are forgiven? Kind of find that hard to believe......
I can repent now, go out and kill, rape, and rob tomorrow, and I'm still forgiven? I don't think so......

 

[turbosam6]

Turbomike, I think that was just before I joined here. I don't remember any lengthy discussion about this stuff.

 

[GRAYGHOST]

Originally posted by QuickWE4
And suicide is only a "ticket to hell" if you believe that there is indeed a hell. And not everybody believes in a heaven or hell.

Rich

With your theory, If I don't believe in death, I can jump off the Empire State building and not die, right??

This is a discussion that requires a great deal of thought process here........I might have a hard time, but I do enjoy discussions that challenge people to really think about there very existance, and beliefs....and what they say

 

[TurboMike]

Grey Ghost,
What causes the forgiveness of your sins...the acceptence of Jesus Christ as your savior and his work on the cross OR you asking for forgiveness?

There are many denominations that feel you can be saved one minute and lose it the next. The Bible teaches differenet. For example how bad do you have to be to loose your salvation and then how good do you have to be to get it back?

Is it different for each person?

When Jesus said, "It is finished" did he really not mean it?

When Jesus said, "John 10:28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
John 10:29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.
John 10:30 I and my Father are one.
Was he just kidding?


I believe if a person is TRULY saved, they are sealed by God into the family of God and there they remain. There are hundreds more scriptures supporting this.

The question usually comes up, "So a person can be saved and then go out and live like hell?" The answer is NO. First of all a person that is TRULY saved will NOT go out and purposely sin just to be doing it. BUT if a person does sin (and we ALL DO) that sin is paid for...or redemed as the Bible would say. Repentence of sin is what we do to restore fellowship with God. Actually repent does not mean to say "Im sorry" but it comes from the Greek word metanoeo which means "To changes one's mind"...or do a 180 degree turn. For a person to fully understand thier salvation they must first fully understand what happened on the cross that gave them thier salvation.

Some other notes:
Religion: Religion has NOTHING TO DO WITH GOD. Religion is a man-made effort to follow, interpet and understand something he can never do. The Christian belief is NOT suppose to be religion but a person relationship with God. People create religion.
Many have been killed in the name of Religion, but also in the name of Atheism also. The bottom line is that WE are the ones killing each other.

Atheism: Rarely do I find a true atheist. Most the time the encounter is a person that is anti-thiest instead. I can get more into that later if someone wants.

"How can a God of love allow bad things to happen like 9/11"
Did God drive the plane into the buildings? No, of course not. But God allows the free will of every single person ever created just like he allows YOU to chose Christ or not to. God does not create puppets or does he play with us like we are. I often wondered when working for the Department of Corrections how God could allow a grown man to sexually molest a young child. At times I got angry at God for allowing it to happen. But then I understood that if God did not allow that man to make HIS own choice in his life that he was NOT allowing that person his own freewill and therefore would ultimately be unfair and unjust. Ultimatly WE are the ones who make OUR choices and the individuals making that choice should be the one we're pointing our fingers at. I guess the best solution I can give if for each person to go into the world and make positive changes, stand for positive solutions and do your part in changing and shaping our world instead of raising our fists to God and throwing the blame on him.

Evolution
Yes, there is allot of support for evolution, but there are allot of discrepancies also. (this is a huge debate and subject but we can address it more indepth a little later if desired)

Theology
There are two main stream theology views.
1. Calvinism: This started from a man by the name of John Calvin. Calvin believed that those who are/were believers were the elect, chosen by God, and are predestined for heaven or hell before even conceived. He believed that our lives were like road maps and every decision is known and made and we just run our course.

2. Arminism is the second view which is states that we are created and then placed on earth and everything is sort of a "roll of the dice" and what happens is just by chance. Most Arminian believers feel that God is watching over us, but does not really interceed.

I think most Christians have combined the two beliefs togther (which I have done) and would state that yes, God does know what decisions were going to make but DOES allow us to ultimately make them. YES, God DOES intervein in our lives but not every single thing that happens. For example: When a person gets sick with cancer or something we always ask, "Why?" or "Why would God allow me to get sick?" The answer is usually one of the following:
1. Faith: It is a test of your faith (for you, not God) or a way to "hone" you to bring you to where God wants you to be. You can look at the book of Job for a example of that.

2. Punishment: I think this is the RAREST reason, but one that does occur. I person could be sick as a result of the way they are living thier lives. A person could argue... what about Manson or others that are evil and not sick. Again, it's not my choice who does or does not suffer.

3. The way it is: We live in a sinful world that increasingly gets worse. As a result of a dying, decaying world sickness occurs. I believe that the majority of the time this answer to sickness is the most common.

The exsistence of God

HUGE debate that has been argued for thousands of years and always will be. Each question can be answered with the same question so it really just goes around in circles.

For example:
A."You can't prove that God exsists!"
B. "You can't prove that God does NOT exsist"

I can't prove that any person TRULY exists either.

It never fails that this subject ends up in multible subjects. For example: One post can turn into: How can God be real? What about Creation vs. Evolution?, Why do bad things happen?, How can there really be a hell?, Aren't al religions the same basically?

Though each subject is important it's entire different debate and it's totally impossible to discuss that many topics and give good answer especially with mulitable people posting.

Gotta go to work. Sorry for the "book". More later.

 

[turbo87limited]

Well said Mike. I myself, am a christian also. I can only tell you that when I finally decided to turn my life around, God did not make me wealthier, he did not make my life easier, nor did everything in my life get perfect all of a sudden. What I can say is that, because of my beliefs, I am able to handle situations better. I here people say things everyday, why did God let this happen to me. What I can tell you from my experiences is we are blessed each and every day. People take for granted what good friends they have, their good jobs, their homes, their cars, and mostly they wake up each day. I am not really educated in the Bible as much as some people are, but just trying to tell you what my life has been about.

Bubba Nicholson

 

[GRAYGHOST]

Originally posted by TurboMike
Grey Ghost,
What causes the forgiveness of your sins...the acceptence of Jesus Christ as your savior and his work on the cross OR you asking for forgiveness?

Well, seems you got to have both in that....if Jesus did not die on the cross, we would not have had the opportunity to be able to ask for forgiveness. Obviously as a Christians belief, you must asked to be forgiven, and ask Jesus into your heart for a personal relationship.

Now then, what happen to people who died before Jesus? Does not seem fair they did not have then same chance that peolpe had after his death does it?

Also, I understand free will, BUT, I have also heard that God has our lives planned for us. Is that a plan just up to certain points where we decide on things, then he has different plans according to how we choose certain ways? That does not really seem right either. And what about people in the world that will never have the opportunity to be "witnessed" to. How can one make a choice to accept the Lord when they might not ever hear about him? Doesn't seem right either........

I have heard that children who die automatically go to Heaven because they do not know yet salvation, so if there are adults in the world who have sinned according to the Christian beliefs, but have never been told about God/Jesus, do they automatically go to Heaven because they did not know? Either way, it would not be fair, depending on which side you argue the point.

TurboMike, you also sound pretty educated on this subject matter...where do you get your information? Have you studied the Bible, or are you a Christian? There are a lot of scholars of the Bible, but are not Christians. Not implying anything towards you, just curious as to the origin of your imformation.

 

[QuickWE4]

Originally posted by GRAYGHOST
With your theory, If I don't believe in death, I can jump off the Empire State building and not die, right??

T

Go roll your eyes someplace else and stop splitting hairs with me. Please read my statement again. You're making an illogical extension here.


Rich

 

[GRAYGHOST]

Originally posted by QuickWE4
And suicide is only a "ticket to hell" if you believe that there is indeed a hell. And not everybody believes in a heaven or hell.

Rich

O.K. I read it again, and it still has the same meaning to me. Just because you don't believe there is a hell, does not mean that there is not one.

Just the same I believe there is one, that does not mean there is, there could be no hell.

How do you know untill you die and find out? Is that a chance you want to take, not me. I'll believe it, and if after I die, find out there is no hell, well so what. But if there is, and I don't go because of my Christian beliefs, then that's a better decision than the alternate, in my opinion.

Hey, I'm not trying to split your hairs, just your statements.. I ain't mad at ya! You put your thoughts out there on a discussion like this, don't think it might not come back at you!! I expect the same in return, as a matter of fact, I retracted my original statement about suicide being a way way ticket to hell because someone "split my hairs" about it...

 

[TurboMike]

Grey Ghost:
Now then, what happen to people who died before Jesus? Does not seem fair they did not have then same chance that peolpe had after his death does it?

Prior to the dispensation of Grace people were judged according to the Leviticus law and how they kept that. I believe in 5 dispensations of God.
Innocence, Conscience, Government, Law, Grace.

Some people add Tribulation and Kingdom as dispensations also.


Also, I understand free will, BUT, I have also heard that God has our lives planned for us. Is that a plan just up to certain points where we decide on things, then he has different plans according to how we choose certain ways? That does not really seem right either.

Like I said before, Calvinist...and especially hyper-Calvinist believe that our lives are just a road map before us and we have no bearing in the direction it takes.

God is God. That means he is ALL knowing and sure he knows what decision we will make. YES, God does have a plan for each of us. No one is born by mistake or without cause or purpose. I've had youth come to me and say, "My mom and dad HAD to get married because she made a mistake a got pregant. I'm just a mistake." and to them I say NO ONE is a mistake. Your parents made the conditions in which you were born but God loves you as much as any other person ever born or will be born. God foreknew each of us before we were ever conceaved. I think that is a problem with alot of the youth. They don't feel there is a purpose in this life and they aren't important. I can tell you that everyone is important no matter who they are, what they are, or the color of thier skin.


And what about people in the world that will never have the opportunity to be "witnessed" to. How can one make a choice to accept the Lord when they might not ever hear about him? Doesn't seem right either........

That question is brought up alot. The Bible teaches that anyone that TRULY seeks God will find him. For some in far away tribes it will be missionaries. I had a missionary tell me a story about a tribe that was discovered sometime back that had never had contact with the outside world. They had thier own "religion" (i really don't like that word) and so she began to study it. She said that all thier beliefs went parallel with what the Bible teaches even though they had never seen a Bible or would be able to read it if they did. The theogy of God, the son, sin, acceptence and repentence was all included. Not all tribes are this way, in fact most are not. I guess we can see why it's so important to support the missionaries in what they are called to do.


I have heard that children who die automatically go to Heaven because they do not know yet salvation, so if there are adults in the world who have sinned according to the Christian beliefs, but have never been told about God/Jesus, do they automatically go to Heaven because they did not know? Either way, it would not be fair, depending on which side you argue the point.

The point in which you are judged is determined by the time you understand fully right from wrong, sin from good. This is called by many the "age of accountability". For some this is 5 years old for example.. for some it 12 years old. Each person is different. If a baby dies this baby does NOT have the understanding of right and wrong and therefore would go to Heaven. The same would stand true for a retarted person or someone like that.

TurboMike, you also sound pretty educated on this subject matter...where do you get your information? Have you studied the Bible, or are you a Christian? There are a lot of scholars of the Bible, but are not Christians. Not implying anything towards you, just curious as to the origin of your imformation.

At one time most on this site knew of my beliefs but I don't post much anymore and there are alot of new people. Funny how I have dedicated so much time and effort to the TR world and within a small amount of time my efforts are forgotten. It seems like yesterday that Mike Licht called me and said, "Hey, I've got a idea for the Turbo Buicks. It's called a ultimate message board. Would you be interested in supervising it."

Anyway...I am 36 years old. I truly discovered Christ 5 years ago. I had only been to church a few times in my life and didn't know alot about it. I believed in God, lived a good life...yada, yada... but never confessed Christ as my savior. Once saved I began to study a system called Apologetics. This is a system that is used to defend the Christian faith. In other words I wanted to back up what I believe. God changed my plans for now and for the past year I have been a Children's Minister in my home church. So yea, I'm a Christian that studies the Bible (imagine that..lol) that attends a Southern Baptist Church and works with kids.

 

[GRAYGHOST]

I'd be interested in finding out more about your studies, and how I can study them myself.

I was Baptized and confirmed Methodist. However, my greatest influence is my Grandfather who is Deacon of a Baptist church.

After learning more about the Bible, there are questions that are hard to answer. Don't get me wrong, I believe in God, and that Jesus died for our sins, and the Bible. But after living in this world for 31 years and trying to raise 3 children and marraige, etc., etc.. I come up with questions that are really hard to answer according to the Christian beliefs.

I also don't like the word religion much.....there is way too much religion in this world. And look where it has gotten us all.....