what the hell is wrong with people?!

Can you name someone other that Christ himself that lived a sinless life? If you break on law (or commandment) you've broken them all. If I'm preparing a egg omlet with 4 eggs. I add 3 then the fourth one is rotten have I not spoiled the entire omlet? Sin is what seperates us from God and we aren't to judge "which sin" is worst and which ones we should keep.

The 10 commandments were given to the Isrealites as a reference of the law. Most refer to this law as the Mosaic law. Actually thier were 613 laws. The laws were given to the Isrealites (or Jews) to follow mainly to show them that they can't live that way...can't live a perfect life. If you break one law (or have sinned) you have broken them all because a truly righteous and holy God cannot look upon any sin. I teach my kids that stealing is stealing and lying is lying. If you steal 5 cents it's just as bad as stealing 5 dollars. Wrong is wrong no matter the amount.

Now, lets look at living a good life. According to who? You? Are you the one who sets the standards for what a "good life" is? If others don't live according to YOUR standards are they sub-par? What gives you the authority to set the standards?

This question always reminds me of another instance while I was working for DOC in Richmond Va. About the 3rd night I was on duty we heard terrible screams from the upper level of Cell Block 2. By the time we responded a inmate had been rapped by other inmates. The inmate that had been rapped was sent to prison with charges of child molestation. I was one of the officers that transported the inmate to the hospital that night.

During that transport I must admit I told the inmate I felt he got everything he deserved. At this time in my life I was not a Christian. As a matter of fact I was involved with a questionable group called the Aryan Nation (aka skinheads). The inmate...the child molester told me that he felt what he did was NOT wrong. That in HIS EYES it was perfectly NORMAL to have sex with a child. He said the child understood and felt it was ok also.

As the other officers on the transport pulled me off the inmate (I admit I started pounding him somewhat and I was reprimanded for doing so) I began to think (even back then). How could I say he was wrong? (WHICH HE IS) But if we set our own standards of good, our own standards of what is right, our own measuring stick of what is right and wrong, our own belief in what is a "good life" and what is not...then how can we look at ANYONE and say what THEY are doing is wrong??? As I said earlier, Hitler felt what he was doing was absolutely right! He felt he was doing society a favor? Was he? If you say no, and live by YOUR own standards, how do you justify having that right? Do you understand what I am saying? Now if we each live according to GOD'S standards then we all live on the same playing field and under the same rules and those standards are which we are judged on BY the only one with the right to judge us- GOD.

There is a huge misconception that God is some kind of school principal that carries his rulebook and a paddle (remember back when paddling was allowed in school?) and he's just waiting for us to screw up so he can punish us. HOW WRONG! Listen, Hell was NOT CREATED FOR PEOPLE. The Bible says Hell was created for "...the devil and his angels". The reason people are sent to hell is because they have followed evil instead of good. God sends no one to hell, they actually send themselves there. The biggest problem I see if people blindly making a opinion of God, the Bible and Christ and never looking for themselves. Their parents raised them with the predetermined notion that God isn't real or he's "real bad" and instead of looking at the evidence that make a conclusion based on what they have been told or influenced. Its funny allot of times because that is the very thing they accuse Christians of.

Lastly, Understand the origin of sin. God never forced us to do so. We did on our own free will and continue to do so today. God knows we sin and that is why we made a way for us to overcome it and be with him. All through eternity God has tried to help us and we reject him and turn our backs. It's like when people who live in the poverty sections of large cities teach their kids to hate cops, to throw objects and police cars, to run the cops from their neighborhood and when the cops stop coming, and a robbery or murder is committed those very same people BLAME the cops for what happened. You can't reject God and then blame him. He has tried so many ways. Innocence- we were originally created with innocence until sin occurred which we were deceived and did on our own free will. Conscience- We then were conscience of our sin and tried to justify and cover it up. Government,- We wanted structure and to make our own rules to live by. Law-we decided that we needed a rule book and through the law we saw were not up to par. Grace- God's love still prevails so he provided a way to him through our own faith. You know, through sin God is able to see the true person. If there was no sin it would be so easy for us to say, "Yep, I love God." but through sin, faith and works we are able to show him.
Found that site years ago...pretty good.
 
TurboSam6, I still think you are somewhat misunderstanding my statement about believing in God. That is not my reasoning to believe in God. I wholeheartedly believe that God exists. He has changed my life radically from what I used to be. I like many other pastors sons rebelled. I got into drug use pretty heavily for about 4 years. I know I couldn't have quit withoug God. I was just trying to bring up what I thought to be a logical question. I have always had a hard time trying to communicate what I want to say clearly. <-- See, even that wasn't clear!! :)

Kevins, I have been told by many trusted sources that one of the bones of Lucy was actually taken from a pig or some other animal of that sort. I will do some research and see what I can come up with. I am not saying that this is fact, just stating what I have been told. Again, I ask where are the rest of them? There should be millions. No big deal anymore? Scientists have been searching long and hard for a way to prove that we evolved, it is still a big deal to them. Just read a National Geographic, they are always talking about evolution and the different stages that man has been through.
 
With all of this talk about religion I have one thing to say...........

I'm on a highway to hell!!!!:D ;) :eek:
 
Here is a link that shows the most famous hominids and when they were first discovered and their classification by age. These are not the ONLY ones found but are the FIRST ones to be found. Once you find one that fits into a new category then finding more (even 15 years later) is no big deal.
http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/homs/specimen.html
I agree that these do not prove that we evolved in this manner although I do think that this shows some sort of evolution but maybe not ours. There are still to many holes to fully convince me. I do not know where the “missing link” is or if there is one but there is a huge ocean out there that may have buried that proof so we may never know if it is true. Quite frankly I don’t care if they find it or not except for the curiosity of it b/c it doesn’t affect what I’m going to do tonight or tomorrow, etc..

TurboMike
Quote: “There is a huge misconception that God is some kind of school principal that carries his rulebook and a paddle (remember back when paddling was allowed in school?) and he's just waiting for us to screw up so he can punish us. HOW WRONG! Listen, Hell was NOT CREATED FOR PEOPLE. The Bible says Hell was created for "...the devil and his angels". The reason people are sent to hell is because they have followed evil instead of good. God sends no one to hell, they actually send themselves there. The biggest problem I see if people blindly making a opinion of God, the Bible and Christ and never looking for themselves. Their parents raised them with the predetermined notion that God isn't real or he's "real bad" and instead of looking at the evidence that make a conclusion based on what they have been told or influenced. Its funny allot of times because that is the very thing they accuse Christians of. “

This is where I have an issue. Your God is defined by what the bible has written in it. The “bible” says X, the “bible” says Y. I’ll first state that I may/may not believe in a God but I do not believe in the bible simple b/c MEN wrote it based on what they felt was important. When was it written? A VEERRRYYY long time ago and the minds of men/women have changed significantly just over 100 years so I can’t believe that the people who put that book together thousands of years ago got it correct. We didn’t understand how to plant and raise corn but people are telling me that the bible was correctly written back then? I just can’t believe it and I won’t live my life according to what the book says is the almighty way of living.

If I believe in a God then “my” God is better than your God b/c he’s not as selfish as yours. He doesn’t want me worshipping him once a week. IMO, what TRUE God would? That seems VERY selfish to me. Who ever makes the most browny points gets the prime seating. My God wants me living my life to the fullest every day. He wants me to be good to others and to help others when I can. He also is not going to play “favorites” to those who spend their time once a week to worship him. My god puts me and you in the same category simply b/c we are decent people and would never put you over me or me over you as long as we stay “decent”. If your god is so Holy how can he even think about putting one person on a “higher ground” than another based on prayer or something as petty as whether we believe in him/her or not? This is very judgmental which I think should be against a Gods values.
;)
ks
 
I’ll try to keep this short but I also want to add that my mother died when I was born. She was declared dead for over 2 minutes before she woke up. She saw the light and the pure ease that it brought, she felt the true feeling of calmness but all of this was not enough to truly convince her that there is a “heaven”. She says that she “knows” where she is going when she dies no matter what but that it’s not clear if it is heaven. All she knows is that she will experience that feeling again when it is her time.
I myself have been in several accidents and one was a drowning accident. I did not die or come close to it but I was trapped under a raft during our rafting adventure and while I was stuck I mentally gave up and decided that I would just die. During this time I also felt an overwhelming sense of calm and I felt no fear whatsoever. I always thought drowning would be the hardest thing to experience but now I know better. I think it is the bodies way of shutting down all senses that give people the calmness.

ks
;)
 
This is all very interesting but I think the main points here are being missed. The christian religion is based on a book. To believe as a christian you have to believe whats in this book. As someone mentioned this book as been written and re-written to conform to the standards of the day over and over again. Do you really believe every single word of the bible is correct? If so you might have a few surprises coming.

As a typical human being I would guess most of us know its wrong to kill off our fellow humans. According to your book God knows this to, although he seems to disregard his own rules at a whim.
Every good christian believes god is all knowing. Hmm lets put the 2 things together and take a story from the bible. Good ol Sodom and Gahmora. God wasnt sure what was going on in the city so he sent down a couple angels to check it out. He finds rampent 'sin' being committed among the locals so he tells his boys to get out of town and not look back. Well Lots wife takes a backward glance over her shoulder and he turns her into a block of salt. Dead, Done. No more wifey. Then he proceeds to destroy every living thing in both cities. Hmm yeah thats the kind of god I want to follow. WE know its wrong, HE tells us its wrong but takes great pleasure in doing it himself. Hmm that dont add up in the book of dave. This happens over and over in the bible. The bible also has conflicting stories of the very basis of the christian religion. They cant decide where jesus was born. Different books have him born in different places.

Yep this is the book I want to base my life on.

Heres a little something for you. You are in a store and notice a man stuffing things under his coat. Others nearby also notice it including a 6 yr old boy. When the perp is nabbed the boy asks his parents why the man is being taken away. The parents promptly respond that what the man did was against the law and he will go to Jail for it.

This seems to be the basis of biblical teachings. Do what I say or you go to hell. Personally I would rather tell my children that the man is going to jail because what he did was wrong and hurt other people rather than because it was against the rules.

Dave
 
I would like to clarify how I feel about this matter.
It comes down to "I just don't know". Like I tell my friends, I totally leave the possiblity open to a god, life on other planets, evolution, etc. Whether I belive or disbelieve doesn't affect me what-so-ever on how I live my life. I will try to live it to the fullest and help people along the way b/c that's what I enjoy doing.

This is how I will enjoy the time I have left and what I think LIFE is about.;)

ks:cool:
 
Originally posted by 86brick
While we are generally a little lenient as much as we can be, posts of this nature that go beyond opinion and turn to arguments will not be tolerated and will result in the immediate closing or deletion or editing of the post and possible suspension/banning of the posting members
account.”

ahh... but there is no argument going on.. After all if this thread does upset a few people then they don't have to read it. This is one of the most grownup threads on this subject that I have read and I am actually learning a lot from it based on how others interpret religion and I see it from their view point.. I personally feel that it has been in real good taste thus far. If a Mod thinks otherwise or feels that locking would be better for TB.com then please accept my appology and feel free to lock this thread. I have no problem with that.

ks:cool:
 
I agree with you completely KEVINS. I think this topic has been handled maturely (sp?). Also you guys do have some very valid points. I am not able to present an explanation for some of your questions at this time, but I will try to figure them out. I won't be back on the site very much this weekend. I have a few questions that need answering.
 
Originally posted by KEVINS
ahh... but there is no argument going on.. After all if this thread does upset a few people then they don't have to read it. This is one of the most grownup threads on this subject that I have read and I am actually learning a lot from it based on how others interpret religion and I see it from their view point.. I personally feel that it has been in real good taste thus far. If a Mod thinks otherwise or feels that locking would be better for TB.com then please accept my appology and feel free to lock this thread. I have no problem with that.

ks:cool:

Hey I deleted that:p

I read the part you quoted.......... I was just trying to mess with TurboMike a bit, but maybe I shouldn't cause I could end up getting hit by lightning;) :eek:

It's all in good fun I'm just joking around a bit...... I'm not a very religious person as you can see although I probably should be considering some of my family was/is very religious....... I agree with Turbosam on most of his points although with some things that have happened in my life (near death experiences) I'd like to think that there is some angels watching out for me up there (in what you'd call Heaven)........ Those angels (if they really exsist) are probably family I have lost over the years......... It sure does sound nice to think that way, but how will we ever know if that is really how it goes??:confused: Guess we won't know for sure until the day we die.......................
 
'brick,
LOL, I noticed that I gotcha with that quote!! hehee:D

One thing that I respect from my friends and others is that they admit that they don't have all the answers to my questions. I don't have answers either. Both sides have just as many questions about their own beliefs as I do and that makes me comfortable.
I hope one day that a solid answer is found one way or the other but I'm affraid that if I am right the world would be worse off. People will be more loss and they may use that as a reason to create havoc or destruction.. That will be a sad day if it ever happens!:(

Piece!
ks:cool:
 
Originally posted by KEVINS
'brick,
LOL, I noticed that I gotcha with that quote!! hehee:D

One thing that I respect from my friends and others is that they admit that they don't have all the answers to my questions. I don't have answers either. Both sides have just as many questions about their own beliefs as I do and that makes me comfortable.
I hope one day that a solid answer is found one way or the other but I'm affraid that if I am right the world would be worse off. People will be more loss and they may use that as a reason to create havoc or destruction.. That will be a sad day if it ever happens!:(

Piece!
ks:cool:

Yeah you got me with that quote (darn it)!;)

I feel the same way as you and that comforts me as well to know that some things have yet to be answered by either side (they may never be answered and that's probably a good thing when you stop to think about it)....... I will just do the best I can in life living by my own standards as well as most of society's standards until my last day on this earth........ Karma (in a nutshell that old saying "what goes around comes around!") is one thing I am a firm believer in and that helps to keep me being what I would consider is a good and/or fair person however I will admit I'm not perfect (guess that means I'm human though):cool: :)
 
Turbomike, in response to your question- I don't believe in evil as a "force" or believe in the devil. To belive in the devil would require you to belive in god as well. I do belive of course that people do things that we consider "evil", but I don't think an evil force made them do it. Some people are just twisted, have mental problems, and do very bad things. Maybe they don't understand right and wrong like we do. I'm still with kevins here, not sure what to believe, but I won't change regardless. You're right, most people do think they are good people. But I guess you just have to look at the way people percieve you, to find if you are "good" or not. Hitler may have believed he was a good person, however, millions of jews did not think he was good. They knew he was evil. Nobody I know thinks I am evil.

Mike, you say you were a skinhead, but you're not now. Did god have something to do with that change in your life? I always hear people saying things like "I couldn't have done it without god, or jesus", but I think the truth is you could do it, because you wanted to, not because god showed you the way. Put it like this: If you still desired to be a skinhead, don't you think you would be? You wouldn't be like "I wanna hate blacks and jews, but god says no, so I'd better not." No, you would not. You decided it was time for you to change. Same with the guy who was a drug abuser. God did not bring you through it dude, you did, or maybe some real live people like family did. When you had urges to do drugs, who stopped you? God? Doubt it. It was either yourself or another person.

I like to help people out because it makes me feel good. Everyone wants to feel good. But for some people, it takes something we percieve as being wrong for them to feel good, like child molesters, serial killers, etc. Those people need help, so wheres god for them? If god exists, he should help these people before they ruin someone elses life. Instead he chooses to talk to Jimmy Baker? OK, cheap stab, sorry. My point is that maybe there is a god, maybe not, but we as humans have NO idea what he or his ideas are like. All we have is a bible, written by man, years ago, when no one knew anything. Face it, people lie. That whole book could be false and we can't prove it. Some of that book is so far fetched that if God himself revealed his self to me, I'd still be like "Come on now, what REALLY happened?". I wish I knew more about the bible and religion, for arguments sake, but I don't. Honestly, I've never really studied the bible. I've had parts of it explained to me by ministers, but I never really read it.

You're right mike, I do not have any faith in people, they will let you down. Blaming god for it, I don't know. Gods never had a chance to lie to me. I just know people who claim to be devout christians, but they are not good people. I do not wish to be associated with them. These same people are the ones who will tell me that I'd better accept Jesus, or else. I'm like "You'd better stop skimming off the donation plate, or else!" If God is real and accepts your dumb ass, then I should be OK. I know that maybe the people I refer to are the minority, but does god accept them or not? They should go to hell just for pretending to worship god for insurance purposes.

If the bible was written by man, how come no one had added to it over the last few hundred years? Did god stop talking to people? We all know that if anyone said today that god spoke to them, we'd say they are nuts. Maybe the people who wrote the bible are nuts? Just seems like a leap of faith, if you will, to just blindly leave your life in gods hands, as some people do. Some of these people need bitch slapped by reality. I have friends who just say that its in gods hands. They get themselves into messes and I guess expect god to fix it? One of friends is always broke, and says basically that his life is in gods hands and he won't need money, god will make sure he's OK. I'm tellin' him to stop goin' to the titty bar, cuz the landlord will toss you and the bible out.

I think this is a good discussion, and interesting. I'm learning a lot. I don't think anything anyone says will change my mind, but its important to understand where others are coming from. If there is a god and heaven, if I see any of you up there, I'll be the first to admit I'm wrong. Did you read my questions about heaven earlier Mike? About what its supposed to be like?
 
Originally posted by turbosam6
Same with the guy who was a drug abuser. God did not bring you through it dude, you did, or maybe some real live people like family did. When you had urges to do drugs, who stopped you? God? Doubt it. It was either yourself or another person.

You obviously are not in this field, and must not be close to anyone who was ever addicted before.The first steps in Aa/Na (i.e. 12 step program) involve admitting that you are totally powerless over your addiction and you must recognize a "higher power" to help you get through this "disease" and stay sober. You cannot do it by yourself or for someone else. AA 101.
 
Originally posted by turbosam6
I always hear people saying things like "I couldn't have done it without god, or jesus", but I think the truth is you could do it, because you wanted to, not because god showed you the way.

Where do you think the "power" comes from withins oneself to do whatever it is they need to do.

I do understand your thoughts, but I also think that once someone realizes that they need God in there life, that's where the change is made. Until people accept him, then they think they do it all on there own. And granted, one must choose to do things on there own, but again I ask you where the inner strength comes from?
Obviously everybody is different and gets different things out of life, but God has a plan and will reveal himself when he needs to. It is different for everybody. Some people it takes terrible things to happen, others it does not. I always like to remember in bad times, because that is when most people start to question their faith, that everything does happen for a reason, and that God WILL NOT close a door without OPENING another one.

I also admire your open mindedness and honesty of your position on what you beleive, or don't in this case;) And think that it is great you use this to challenge and learn by it. This discussion has also helped me and revealed to me things I never knew or thought of before.

For the first time in years I actually think about a post during the day and find myself looking forward to coming home to see what responses have been posted.
 
turbosam, if you check out the question and answer section of www.biblebb.com it will give you information on the Biblical answers......

I must admit that I have found really helpful material about marraige on this site also that has opened my eyes a great deal in understanding why my marraige has suffered so much like many others do. Amazing at how you can be told all your life about something or things, but not ever really figure it out till it happens to you, and you search the answers for yourself.

I guess it is kind of like God, you have to seek him yourself, does not matter what everybody tells you about him. I've been brought up all my life to "know" God, and his son Jesus, but until I sought him for myself it never became apparent he was there......I have become so much more aware about my actions and especially language. I was in the Navy, had the typicall Sailors talk, but find myself now having alternative "choice" words. I seemed to have had some kind of "awakening" Which brings to mind a question I have always had about being "saved" Turbomike, how do you know your saved? I hear about some people saying they felt the Holy Spirit come into them, and they had this undescribeble(sp) feeling......Is it different ways people know they have been saved?
 
I don't buy the "higher power" thing. I firmly believe that the power to do anything you do comes from within you. So what if an atheist quits drinking or abusing drugs? Whats his or her "higher power"? Maybe some people think that god helped them, and thats cool, if it gives them the will they need, great. I don't care if you think big bird gives you the power to quit smoking, as long as it works for you. I don't think god gives you the will or the power to do anything. If he did, why would he have you do those things to begin with? Its simply a matter of what you truely want. Its like anything else, you wanted a fast TR, right? Did god do it for you? No. You learned, read, spent money, and tried to do it yourself. Because you wanted it. Its important to you. Isn't that also AA 101 striker29, you have to do it for you, not for anyone else? Bottom line is, I think people use god as a crutch, because they simply cannot handle the reality of their lives, so its easier to just throw up your hands and say its all on god now. Maybe people wouldn't need "god" so much if they would start taking some responsibility and thinking before doing something stupid.

This kid down the street is a good example. He is 19, and got his 17 year old g/f pregnant at when he was 18. This was unplanned, and she had to quit school. He works a sh!tty job, which he's lucky to have with his minimal education, and they scrape by. I do admire that he works and doesn't accept welfare. He married her when she was 18. He says "God must have wanted me to have this kid", when he bitches about being strapped down so young and having to make so many sacrifices. No, dummy. God didn't do nothin'. You stuck you know what you know where, and this is the result. Had you spent 75 cents on a rubber this probably would not have happened. That is science, my friends. Women get pregnant from intercourse. So quit acting like god gave you some challenge with this child, go to work, and put her on the damn pill before it happens again.
 
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