what the hell is wrong with people?!

[striker_29]

Originally posted by turbosam6
I don't buy the "higher power" thing.

I think you do, you just don't realize it. It sounds like you buy the "higher power" thing, just not the Jesus/God thing. The higer power can be big bird, or a pencil, as long as it is "your" higher power. It cannot be done alone.

So what if an atheist quits drinking or abusing drugs? Whats his or her "higher power"? Maybe some people think that god helped them, and thats cool, if it gives them the will they need, great. I don't care if you think big bird gives you the power to quit smoking, as long as it works for you. I don't think god gives you the will or the power to do anything

See above. Atheists and agnostics were considered before you brought this revelation to light.

Its simply a matter of what you truely want. Its like anything else, you wanted a fast TR, right? Did god do it for you? No. You learned, read, spent money, and tried to do it yourself. Because you wanted it. Its important to you. Isn't that also AA 101 striker29, you have to do it for you, not for anyone else?

No it's not "simply a matter of what you truly want." No matter how you feel that speed(i.e. a fast TR) is an addiction, it is not. A real addiction will cause you to have real withdrawals, seizures, and possibly die, if it is not fed. Once again, it is obvious you are really kind of lacking in your serious knowledge on this subject.

God does not make us have sex and get girls pregnant like your young neighbor, nor does he make us get addicted to drugs. These things he leaves up to us. Once again I am no bible thumper, just relaying the generally (and medically) accepted truths concerning addiction. You can argue with me, but I challenge you to argue with the entire medical proffesion.

 

[dthrock]

Ive always thought religion was the perfect scam, anything good that happens to you its gods gift. Anything bad happens to you you did it to yourself or you arent 'listening to god' or seeking gods will. Ive yet to see one, yes one, thing that god has done for anyone. Its all just a point of view. Striker has something good happen to him and he things god did it. Me, I think it was just the way it is. Striker has something bad happen to him and its either a learning experience because God has something to teach him thru it or its 'satans influence on the world'
How about we step up to the plate and take responsibility for our own actions and quit trying to blame every thing that happens on some divine presense that just doesnt exist. If something good happens, accept it, something bad, well accept that to and get on with it. As for your statements the no one can get over an addiction without gods help, well thats just plain stupid. It happens every day. Thats the same as saying we cant breath without gods help. He gave us life so without him we would be dead, some such question like that. Doesnt make sense. We do what we do, thru our own willpower, not because some divine being decided to be nice to us today and give us a break.

If that were the case then only christians would be doing well in the world. Why should god treat non-christians (of course you know they are the only ones that are right, all the other religions are soooo far off base) better than his chosen? Because your god does absolutely nothing, he just lets things happen as they will. If thats the case, why would I need him?

Anyone ever go to an Amway convention, it looks strangely like a church revival meeting. They use the same brainwashing techniques that religion uses to get you to think what they want you to think.

Striker I think you need to take a step back and let the guy have his own thoughts. As far as I know, no one has been able to read minds yet. So if he says thats what he thinks, well Im sure he knows better than you do. If you have a direct connection to god and he is supplying his thoughts to you, maybe you should be on TV with the guy who wacks people in the head and 'heals' them.

No one has yet to address the inherent problems with christianity that I posted in my first message in this threat. All based on a book that was written hundreds of years after the actually events happened. Without the bible your beliefs are no better than the wiccans or budists. Just another organized dog worship.

Then theres my favorite little paradox, if god is all powerful, can he make a rock big enough that he cant pick it up?

 

[striker_29]

Originally posted by dthrock
As for your statements the no one can get over an addiction without gods help, well thats just plain stupid. It happens every day.

I won't arugue with your other thoughts as you seemed to have missed my point. But this statement I would like you to back up. Very rare indeed is the person that sobers up permanently without working a 12 step program. They are generally reffered to as "dry drunks" and are about as rare as a new in the box turbo regal stock crankshaft. These people almost always relapse in a short period of time. Prove me wrong.

 

[turbosam6]

Striker, you are only proving my point. You said that god does not make us get pregnant, or do drugs. Thats what I said. My neighbor thinks god wanted him to have the baby, I said it was all him. Same as what you said.

It sounds to me like once again, you are talking about forced religion. If I was an alcoholic, and not a religious man, and I wanted to quit, I would HAVE to accept Jesus or whatever to quit? Same with the guys on death row. They accept Jesus as their saviour, so they can be forgiven of their sins. Hell, I don't care if I worship trees, if I'm dying tomorrow, you bet your ass I'll say I accept Jesus. Whether or not I mean it is something else, but when the priest comes around the cell block, I'd say most would say they accept Jesus. Its a good insurance policy against going to hell, which they should anyway if they deserve it.

I DO NOT believe in any "higher power". I think I made that clear. I believe some things are powerful, and there are some profound things to learn in this lifetime, but I think we are all equally powerful, and that the will to do whatever you do strictly comes from you. I don't believe anyone who says they were acted upon by an outside force. You make it sound like becoming a christian or whatever is required to quit whatever your addiction is. You also make it sound like those who do accept christ and quit never have a relapse. Yeah, right.

Argue with the medical profession? Whens the last time you went to the doctor? I don't seem to recall any time where a doctor said to me "Well, we need such and such drugs, and a shot of this, then pray for 2 weeks." When someone goes to the doc with a problem, they give that person treatment, not a bible.

I think part of the reason groups like AA say you must accept a higher power, its because you've already shown your weakness by becoming addicted. Obviously if you had the power to quit, or at least thought you did, you probably wouldn't be there in the first place. You have become "hopeless" and this gives you hope. You can rely on someone or something other than yourself. YOU still quit, and ultimately, YOU made it happen, and AA helps because the members are there to support you. Thats why they have sponsors. Heres a scenario: You're an alcoholic, trying to quit drinking. You've joined AA, and one night you find yourself alone and wanting badly to drink. What do you do? You call your sponsor, who comes over and talks to you and keeps you from drinking. You do not pray and all of a sudden Jesus comes down and sits next to you and talks you out of it. We are human beings. We have strengths and weaknesses, just like all other living things. We need support from people at some point in our lives, whether it be physical or mental.

If god gives people strength and power, we should have some real live superheros. God certainly makes some super weak people, yes? Why then, aren't there some super strong people? Like the biblical characters? He gave moses the power to part the seas. Has anyone actually seen a real live miracle lately? I sure haven't. I've seen nothing but the brutal distruction mankind has created. If there is a god, he might want to turn on CNN and get off his ass and lend a friggin' hand already. Why doesn't he? Could it be because he's not real? No way, we will just make excuses for him, like "He gives us the power to do this". If he did, he has the power to stop you too. He sure didn't stop Hitler, Charles Manson, Jeffery Dahmer, the 9/11 terrorists, or any bad people for that matter. So we will make an excuse for him, the almighty. Thats all I hear when I ask these questions- excuses.

On a side note: If people would just let the reality of the situation set in, realize we are just people, humans, mammels, and realize that we are alone on earth, a planet, made of rock, we would not have half the problems we do. Think of all the stupid things people have done in the word of "God". The entire middle east, with the suicide bombings, terrorist attacks, etc. Hitler, and the sensleless execution of millions. The list goes on.

People ask me my opinion of what happens when we die. I say we just die. We cease to be. They say "Isn't that a scary thought?" Sure. Why do you think people avoid death? If you believe you're going to heaven, and its so great, why don't you risk your life more often? You have nothing to lose, you're going to the best place possible. Why would you not want to die? Because somewhere, deep down, you know its all a crock of sh!t, or you at least suspect it. Thats why we are afraid to die, the unknown. Am I afraid to die? Sure. Not one person on earth can say for sure what will happen. I am pretty confident that theres nothing out there, just death. Just like being asleep.

 

[striker_29]

Wow, you sure did read some things into my statements that I never said, but I guess I am somewhat guilty of that myself. I wiil not argue these points anymore (unless you really want to) because its pretty obvious that we are not going to change each others minds here. I feel pretty confident in my knowledge of this subject, so you surely won't sway me here. I will just point out one last thing, and thats the fact that it is usually only at the lowest point in life do addicts have whats called a "moment of clarity". You typically have to hit rock bottom to have one of these, and that I would wish on nobody. Only at this point can an addict truly start to recover through the help of the higher power. By the time your gettting bibles and good books from doctors, your usually in a hospital or rehab, not the Mea. Now THAT happens everyday, ask any addictionologist. Good debate, but enough on this I suspect.

 

[GRAYGHOST]

Originally posted by turbosam6
On a side note: If people would just let the reality of the situation set in, realize we are just people, humans, mammels, and realize that we are alone on earth, a planet, made of rock, we would not have half the problems we do. Think of all the stupid things people have done in the word of "God". The entire middle east, with the suicide bombings, terrorist attacks, etc. Hitler, and the sensleless execution of millions. The list goes on.

Suffering often occurs at the hand of others. But it has a way of revealing what is in our own hearts. Capacities for love, mercy, anger, envy, and pride can lie dormant until awakened by circumstances. Strength and weakness of heart is found not when everything is going our way but when flames of suffering and temptation test the mettle of our character. As gold and silver are refined by fire, and as coal needs time and pressure to become a diamond, the human heart is revealed and developed by enduring the pressure and heat of time and circumstance. Strength of character is shown not when all is well with our world but in the presence of human pain and suffering (Job 42:1-17; Romans 5:3-5; James 1:2-5;1 Peter 1:6-8).

 

[GRAYGHOST]

Originally posted by turbosam6

People ask me my opinion of what happens when we die. I say we just die. We cease to be. They say "Isn't that a scary thought?" Sure. Why do you think people avoid death? If you believe you're going to heaven, and its so great, why don't you risk your life more often? You have nothing to lose, you're going to the best place possible. Why would you not want to die? Because somewhere, deep down, you know its all a crock of sh!t, or you at least suspect it. Thats why we are afraid to die, the unknown. Am I afraid to die? Sure. Not one person on earth can say for sure what will happen. I am pretty confident that theres nothing out there, just death. Just like being asleep.

If death is the end of everything, then a life filled with suffering isn't fair. But if the end of this life brings us to the threshold of eternity, then the most fortunate people in the universe are those who discover, through suffering, that this life is not all we have to live for. Those who find themselves and their eternal God through suffering have not wasted their pain. They have let their poverty, grief, and hunger drive them to the Lord of eternity. They are the ones who will discover to their own unending joy why Jesus said, "Blessed are the poor in spirit, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven" (Matthew 5:1-12;Romans 8:18-19).

 

[GRAYGHOST]

Originally posted by turbosam6
Has anyone actually seen a real live miracle lately? I sure haven't. I've seen nothing but the brutal distruction mankind has created. If there is a god, he might want to turn on CNN and get off his ass and lend a friggin' hand already. Why doesn't he? Could it be because he's not real? No way, we will just make excuses for him, like "He gives us the power to do this". If he did, he has the power to stop you too. He sure didn't stop Hitler, Charles Manson, Jeffery Dahmer, the 9/11 terrorists, or any bad people for that matter. So we will make an excuse for him, the almighty. Thats all I hear when I ask these questions- excuses.

No one would choose pain and suffering. But when there is no choice, there remains some consolation. Natural disasters and times of crisis have a way of bringing us together. Hurricanes, fires, earthquakes, riots, illnesses, and accidents all have a way of bringing us to our senses. Suddenly we remember our own mortality and that people are more important than things. We remember that we do need one another and that, above all, we need God. Each time we discover God's comfort in our own suffering, our capacity to help others is increased. This is what the apostle Paul had in mind when he wrote, "Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of mercies and God of all comfort, who comforts us in all our tribulation, that we may be able to comfort those who are in any trouble, with the comfort with which we ourselves are comforted by God" ( 2 Corinthians 1:3-4).

No one has suffered more than our Father in heaven. No one has paid more dearly for the allowance of sin into the world. No one has so continuously grieved over the pain of a race gone bad. No one has suffered like the One who paid for our sin in the crucified body of His own Son. No one has suffered more than the One who, when He stretched out His arms and died, showed us how much He loved us. It is this God who, in drawing us to Himself, asks us to trust Him when we are suffering and when our own loved ones cry out in our presence ( 1 Peter 2:21; 3:18; 4:1).

The apostle Paul pleaded with the Lord to take away an unidentified source of suffering. But the Lord declined saying, "My grace is sufficient for you, for My strength is made perfect in weakness." "Therefore," said Paul, "most gladly I will rather boast in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me. Therefore I take pleasure in infirmities, in reproaches, in needs, in persecutions, in distresses, for Christ's sake. For when I am weak, then I am strong" (2 Corinthians 12:9-10). Paul learned that he would rather be with Christ in suffering than without Christ in good health and pleasant circumstances

 

[GRAYGHOST]

By the way, I am no "Holy Roller", I have only researched for the answers to the questions that have been thrown out there. Funny to me you can find the answers in the Bible, if you want to. And obviously, you have to believe in the story that's found in it.

I think that this post can go on forever argueing points back and forth, it all boils down to whether or not you believe in Christ. What can make one believe? Fear, suffering, or gratitude and appreciation? It all comes to us differently, and in its own time.

 

[GRAYGHOST]

Two days and no more posts on this thread? WOW, did I end it with my last statements or did everybody just lose interest?

Bet it's the later of the two.....but for what it is worth I really enjoyed the discussion, and thought everyone that participated in it was socially accepting of each others thoughts and opinions.

 

[turbosam6]

Yeah, I think everyone has said what they wanted to say. It was very interesting, but you can't "argue" beliefs. Everyone believes what they want. I hope none of us find out too soon who was right!

 

[BOOSTD]

Wow, I came in WAY late on this discussion! After reeding throught the first page and a half, I gave up and decided to reply. So forgive me if I say something that has already been stated. LOL "forgive," get it?

First - I need to state that I do not belong to a church because of the obvious reasons already stated (hipocracy, etc.)
Second - I am an agnostic. I hope there is a God, but there is a lot of things that go against the existance of God

I have ALWAYS had a "scientific mind." Everything I see, I question. Because of this, I have read and studied MANY different aspects of science. Some of these books and writings include: The Origin Of Species, Gray's Anatomy, A Brief History of Time, Human Physiology, Arastottle, Socraties, Rene Descartes, St. Anselm, and (most importantly) The Bible. Even now, I am majoring in physiology.

Ok, on to my point...
Many people believe that evolution did not bring rise to man.
-Why do all plants, animals, and other organisms on this planet abide by the laws of evolution but humans don't?
-Why is there only a 2% difference between humans and chimps?
-Humans are no more complex than any other organism on this planet.
Bigger? Maybe.
More cells? Probably.
More complex? No.
Superior? Definatly not.
It is hard to believe that humans just appeared one day in a lost guarden while every other animal abided by the laws of evolution!

Second- The second law of thermodynamics can be overcome by the following laws: magnitism, gravity, and the strong and weak nuclear forces (refer to your physics books). These laws explain the existance of the sun, the planets, and life.

Third- Humans are nothing more than a conglomeration of hydrogen, oxygen, carbon, nitrogen and 17 other elements. Thats all we are! How these elements react with each other is what makes life possible. One thing that I have to question though, is the human mind. It is hard for me to believe that great advances in science, art, music and culture could be the result of a pile of elements. This is the one main point that keeps me an agnostic and not an athiest.

fourth-Modern theoredical physics are now suggesting that there could be one theory that explains the existance of the universe. One set of rules and equations that apply to everything that we see. What we cant explain is the "why" question. Why was the universe created? This is yet another posibility for the existance of God. However the theoredical physicist, Stephen Hawking, brings up an interesting thought.

"If we do discover a complete theory, it should in time be understandable in broad principale by everyone, not just a fiew scientists. Then we shall all, philosophers, scientists, and just ordinary people, be able to take part in the discussion of the question of why it is that we and the universe exist. If we find the answer to that, it would be the ultimate triumph of human reason --- for then we would know the mind of God."

BOOSTD

Bib. Hawking, Stephen. "A Brief History of Time." 1988

 

[BOOSTD]

Well, I decided to read the rest of the thread and my reply is kind of off topic. Sorry.
Maybe it will bring life back into this discussion...or just make me look like an idiot.
Well, the wheels were turning in my head, so I had to reply.

Thanks for humering me

BOOSTD

 

[TurboMike]

I didnt reply anymore because it seemed no one was READING. It's like talking to someone and instead of them listening to what your saying, they are thinking of what THEY are going to say next. I would answer a question and then a few posts later it would be asked again (usually in a different way) and if a person isn't going to read ALL the replies why bother.

 

[dthrock]

Originally posted by TurboMike
I didnt reply anymore because it seemed no one was READING. It's like talking to someone and instead of them listening to what your saying, they are thinking of what THEY are going to say next. I would answer a question and then a few posts later it would be asked again (usually in a different way) and if a person isn't going to read ALL the replies why bother.

I wouldnt call it answering questions, It would be closer to making scripture quotes that everyone gets so tired of hearing. Personally its all the same canned message that every preacher/minister in the US quotes every week. Why bother to try to talk to someone when they have a fresh wipe every Sunday.

Again, back to quoting that same old book full of errors and changed to fit whatever era that its being read to. How many thousands of years now has every generation thought the 2nd coming was going to happen tomorrow?

Dave

 

[TurboMike]

Originally posted by dthrock
I wouldnt call it answering questions, It would be closer to making scripture quotes

You just PROVE MY POINT!!! I quoted (1) one scripture as an answer to Grey Ghost about eternal security. ONE.

Again, back to quoting that same old book full of errors and changed to fit whatever era that its being read to. How many thousands of years now has every generation thought the 2nd coming was going to happen tomorrow

Dave

Talk about the same old lingo...it's very apparent you haven't studying the history or origin of the Bible. Have you read it and discovered the errors? Most people haven't they just go on what they are told to believe or cut and paste from websites. Study the origin and even do so from a secular point of view.

 

[dthrock]

No point, I could study every possible explaination out there and I still wouldnt believe in Santa Claus, The tooth fairy, witchcraft, magic, spirits, demons, devils, or some all powerful being that created everything from nothing and supposedly has already doomed us all to burn forever if we dont change our minds and worship him.

Bottom line, its folk lore just like everything else I listed. I would bet you would tell me you dont believe in magic or witchcraft, but you believe in angels and demons. Makes perfect sense to me.

 

[TurboMike]

Few simple rules of etiquette when debating or even in general conversation. One,never put words in other peoples mouths. I'd be glad to tell you what i believe, but please don't assume things.
Second, research and study.

Thirdly, respects others and thier beliefs. I have the utmost respect for anyone that can discuss what they believe or don't believe and do so properly.

 

[GRAYGHOST]

Originally posted by dthrock
I wouldnt call it answering questions, It would be closer to making scripture quotes that everyone gets so tired of hearing.
Dave

I'm the guilty one on that. Reason being is I am no where near being a teacher of anything, so all I did was take the questions asked and find the answer that are given in the Bible. Since the questions being asked where questioning the Christian beliefs.

Since none of you guys reading my replies knows me personally, why do I think you will take my own words as to the whys being asked? I find them in the Bible and let you take it's meaning from there, not mine.

By the way, why is everyone tired of hearing IT? Is it because IT can't be questioned further? Can you not prove IT wrong?

If anyone can prove the Bible wrong, I'll give you the keys to my Turbo T!

 

[dthrock]

Originally posted by GRAYGHOST
If anyone can prove the Bible wrong, I'll give you the keys to my Turbo T!

I dont want the keys, I want the car. Thats to easy. Ill just start at the beginning in Genesis with one little example. Break out your bible and read it yourself, dont take my word for it.

Genesis 6:19-22 says that God ordered Noah to bring "of every living thing of all flesh, two of every sort . . . into the ark." Genesis 7:2-3 states, however, that the Lord ordered Noah take into the ark the clean beasts and the birds by sevens and the unclean beasts by twos.

So which is it? Did god change his mind? Is it 2 or 7? Or is it just some clerical error when they wrote that chapter? Maybe god wasnt sure the first time he told him so he thought about it a little bit and changed his mind the second time.

Send me those car keys. Email me for my address