what the hell is wrong with people?!
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This is so much a waste of time. Either you take the english version of the verse or you dont. The entire english speaking world takes the bible at face value. When I point out a blatant contridiction you point me back to ancient jewish customs and a foreign language? Its a myth!! Im not wasting any more of my time.
G
GRAYGHOST
Guest
Well after the waters fled the earth for 150 days, what in the world do you think they where going to eat on the Ark? Why do you think he took extra "clean" animals? That's my opinion of where some of those went, if you don't believe my opinion, read on..........
There is no clerical error, If you read a little deaper in that, he also stated in Genisis 6:20 Two of every kind of creature that moves along the ground WILL COME TO YOU TO BE KEPT ALIVE.
Genisis 8:20 "Then Noah built an altar to the Lord and, taking some of all the clean animals and clean birds, he sacrificed burnt offerings on it."
OH MY, there went the rest of the clean animals! So only two of each kind were left to reproduce. Thanks dthrock, you made me read my Bible this morning.
There is no clerical error, If you read a little deaper in that, he also stated in Genisis 6:20 Two of every kind of creature that moves along the ground WILL COME TO YOU TO BE KEPT ALIVE.
Genisis 8:20 "Then Noah built an altar to the Lord and, taking some of all the clean animals and clean birds, he sacrificed burnt offerings on it."
OH MY, there went the rest of the clean animals! So only two of each kind were left to reproduce. Thanks dthrock, you made me read my Bible this morning.
The key to this one is looking at the reasons given for the numbers of animals to be taken.
First God tells Noah:
[Gen 6:19] "And of every living thing of all flesh you shall bring two of every sort into the ark, to keep them alive with you; they shall be male and female.
[20] "Of the birds after their kind, of animals after their kind, and of every creeping thing of the earth after its kind, two of every kind will come to you to keep them alive.
So the purpose of the command for "two of every kind" was "to keep them alive." Two being the minimum number needed to perpetrate a "kind" of animal. This command was given first.
But later, God gave more specific instructions:
[Gen 7:2] "You shall take with you seven each of every clean animal, a male and his female; two each of animals that are unclean, a male and his female;
Now, seven of "seven each of every clean animal" was to be taken. Why the "extra" clean animals? The key is, what does it mean for an animal to be "clean." Biblically, two points are seen.
The answer can be seen in Genesis 8:20:
Then Noah built an altar to the LORD, and took of every clean animal and of every clean bird, and offered burnt offerings on the altar.
Note that the text specifically says "clean animals" were used for the sacrifice. If only two of each of these had been taken the kinds would not have continued.
So the difference between the instructions can be seen in the purposes for each type of kind. To continue the kinds, two of each animal was taken. But to provide "extra" animals for sacrifice, five additional of each clean animal was taken. So the texts are not contradictory; they are referring to different types of animals. The first command was more general, then the second more specific.
First God tells Noah:
[Gen 6:19] "And of every living thing of all flesh you shall bring two of every sort into the ark, to keep them alive with you; they shall be male and female.
[20] "Of the birds after their kind, of animals after their kind, and of every creeping thing of the earth after its kind, two of every kind will come to you to keep them alive.
So the purpose of the command for "two of every kind" was "to keep them alive." Two being the minimum number needed to perpetrate a "kind" of animal. This command was given first.
But later, God gave more specific instructions:
[Gen 7:2] "You shall take with you seven each of every clean animal, a male and his female; two each of animals that are unclean, a male and his female;
Now, seven of "seven each of every clean animal" was to be taken. Why the "extra" clean animals? The key is, what does it mean for an animal to be "clean." Biblically, two points are seen.
The answer can be seen in Genesis 8:20:
Then Noah built an altar to the LORD, and took of every clean animal and of every clean bird, and offered burnt offerings on the altar.
Note that the text specifically says "clean animals" were used for the sacrifice. If only two of each of these had been taken the kinds would not have continued.
So the difference between the instructions can be seen in the purposes for each type of kind. To continue the kinds, two of each animal was taken. But to provide "extra" animals for sacrifice, five additional of each clean animal was taken. So the texts are not contradictory; they are referring to different types of animals. The first command was more general, then the second more specific.
G
GRAYGHOST
Guest
So did Noah not eat meat? What, was he a vegetarian?
Little humor to ease the subject......
I would have been cooking me some birds, and making some hamburgers out there floating around for 5 months!!
Little humor to ease the subject......
I would have been cooking me some birds, and making some hamburgers out there floating around for 5 months!!
Low Budget
Member
- Joined
- Apr 10, 2002
I think you are missing the obvious here. Just feed THEM the rat shakes. Less rats + no holes to dig!
I remember. Was there only one? Seems like there were a few that originally started off with a different topic (like this one) before transforming into a discussion about "religion"
My apologies (for dredging up this thread) to anyone who had thought that this thread had permanently died...I am currently reading & re-reading through SOME of the posts in this thread and will probably post more later!
Hmm, okay, again, my apologies to all the people that are feeling some degree of disappointment for seeing this thread re-appear. And for the people that wonder why I don't just start this in a brand new thread? Well, it seems like more people will involve themselves in the discussion this way...
Anyway - I suppose anyone can feel free to answer although I am asking this mainly to TurboMike. And I am asking this out in the open so that it might give anyone who reads these words something new to consider.
When I was younger I did not believe in God. After some unique life experiences and contemplation, I have a 95% belief in the existence of "God". I will say that I encourage different beliefs (including disbeliefs) more or less in the way that I encourage everyone to have the car of their choice in the color that they prefer.
So - the Calvinism-vs-Arminism thing. I have put a lot of thought into this. I have the free will to make a choice. For instance, I put a lot of thought back in 1997 whether to stay in the Navy or to "get out" so I could go back to school. Yet looking back on that decision now, I take a Calvinist view that I was already pre-destined to chose to go back to school based on the things that have happened between then and now. This is but one decision in a long line of decision that I feel like I made from free will, but when I look at all of my decisions, all put together, my feeling is that every one of them was already predestined for me to have been made exactly as I chose them.
(10:14pm) Certainly, there will be some that think I'm completely insane. And during my moments that take up 5% of the time, I feel the same way. In my contemplations of this, this belief could be expanded to say that not only these decisions were predestined, but everything in between - my decision to have a hamburger instead of a salad (or vice versa thanks to mad cow?) The tree root that I didn't see and tripped over. Or maybe the fact that I did see the tree root and avoided it (but maybe THAT detail might have escaped my memory because it wasn't significant enough?)
Maybe someone can correct this quote (as well as include the location in the bible?) God says something like "Even before you were born, I knew you."
(10:20pm) What this means to ME is that God was saying I knew you were going to be a boy, or a girl, and you were going to be born in Bethlehem, or Atlanta, or Moscow, and you would grow up and be a math teacher, or a plumber and you would get married when you were 27 years old, and on Tuesday, November the 4th, you would have a turkey sandwich and applesauce with kool aid for lunch. Does this not sound crazy to anyone?
But then here's the real kicker - how can a person believe this, and believe in free will at the same time? Sometime in my future, I'm might have to chose between two jobs that I have applied for. Maybe only one application will turn into a job offer, maybe it will be neither. But I believe the outcome has already been determined. I do not yet know what it is. If this does turn out to be a case of a choice between the two job offers, God already knows what my choice will be. I might give it a lot of thought, or instead, I might decide immediately. I might not have any choice at all. I will not know what will happen until it happens. But it causes my great constipation to believe that god already knows what my choice will be!
So how is it that I really have free will? (this is in my own perspective, in any case)
(message has been submitted before completion, further thinking & typing continues as of right now, with additional words soon to be added)
10:29pm - completed.
I decided to add that my current belief is that "free will" is an illusion - we (myself included) feel we have free will, but if the truth were known, we don't really have free will. sound crazy to you?
Anyway - I suppose anyone can feel free to answer although I am asking this mainly to TurboMike. And I am asking this out in the open so that it might give anyone who reads these words something new to consider.
When I was younger I did not believe in God. After some unique life experiences and contemplation, I have a 95% belief in the existence of "God". I will say that I encourage different beliefs (including disbeliefs) more or less in the way that I encourage everyone to have the car of their choice in the color that they prefer.
So - the Calvinism-vs-Arminism thing. I have put a lot of thought into this. I have the free will to make a choice. For instance, I put a lot of thought back in 1997 whether to stay in the Navy or to "get out" so I could go back to school. Yet looking back on that decision now, I take a Calvinist view that I was already pre-destined to chose to go back to school based on the things that have happened between then and now. This is but one decision in a long line of decision that I feel like I made from free will, but when I look at all of my decisions, all put together, my feeling is that every one of them was already predestined for me to have been made exactly as I chose them.
(10:14pm) Certainly, there will be some that think I'm completely insane. And during my moments that take up 5% of the time, I feel the same way. In my contemplations of this, this belief could be expanded to say that not only these decisions were predestined, but everything in between - my decision to have a hamburger instead of a salad (or vice versa thanks to mad cow?) The tree root that I didn't see and tripped over. Or maybe the fact that I did see the tree root and avoided it (but maybe THAT detail might have escaped my memory because it wasn't significant enough?)
Maybe someone can correct this quote (as well as include the location in the bible?) God says something like "Even before you were born, I knew you."
(10:20pm) What this means to ME is that God was saying I knew you were going to be a boy, or a girl, and you were going to be born in Bethlehem, or Atlanta, or Moscow, and you would grow up and be a math teacher, or a plumber and you would get married when you were 27 years old, and on Tuesday, November the 4th, you would have a turkey sandwich and applesauce with kool aid for lunch.
Does this not sound crazy to anyone?But then here's the real kicker - how can a person believe this, and believe in free will at the same time? Sometime in my future, I'm might have to chose between two jobs that I have applied for. Maybe only one application will turn into a job offer, maybe it will be neither. But I believe the outcome has already been determined. I do not yet know what it is. If this does turn out to be a case of a choice between the two job offers, God already knows what my choice will be. I might give it a lot of thought, or instead, I might decide immediately. I might not have any choice at all. I will not know what will happen until it happens. But it causes my great constipation to believe that god already knows what my choice will be!
So how is it that I really have free will? (this is in my own perspective, in any case)
(message has been submitted before completion, further thinking & typing continues as of right now, with additional words soon to be added)
10:29pm - completed.
I decided to add that my current belief is that "free will" is an illusion - we (myself included) feel we have free will, but if the truth were known, we don't really have free will. sound crazy to you?
Low Budget
Member
- Joined
- Apr 10, 2002
Perhaps it is more a question of time.
If God, and likely all who inhabit the spirit realm, can see "future events" as if they had already happened... We, for example, can view the various historical records and say, on May 4th, 1963, Low Budgit was born. "We" can't see when he will die. Somehow, (I don't know how) I believe those who have gone before us, can see what for us has not yet happened. How far into "our" future they can see, I suppose is to be learned after we join them. So you see, it isn't that we have no free will, it is just that they know what our choices will be by seeing the future, as if it has already become the past. Kind of like reading the ending of a book before the beginning. Just because it is all right there for them to read, doesn't mean they wrote the book. They just posess information we aren't aware of yet.
If God, and likely all who inhabit the spirit realm, can see "future events" as if they had already happened... We, for example, can view the various historical records and say, on May 4th, 1963, Low Budgit was born. "We" can't see when he will die. Somehow, (I don't know how) I believe those who have gone before us, can see what for us has not yet happened. How far into "our" future they can see, I suppose is to be learned after we join them. So you see, it isn't that we have no free will, it is just that they know what our choices will be by seeing the future, as if it has already become the past. Kind of like reading the ending of a book before the beginning. Just because it is all right there for them to read, doesn't mean they wrote the book. They just posess information we aren't aware of yet.
It's all based on FAITH! If you don't have it, very little makes sense.
Who cares about TOTAL free will? God could have at least limited free will, with just ONE non-free will law. "HUMANS CANNOT KILL OTHER HUMANS." Who needs to include killing as choice? Would a lack of being able to kill someone really make us UNHAPPY! Come on...get real!
God looked down and said, "I think I'll give them TOTAL free will. If they want to kill each other it's up to them." Right! Sorry if you believe that kind of a god loves you!
Nope not starting my own religion...it's continuing.
Yep, I even have preacher types in my backround.
If you believe, good for you...you have faith!
Who cares about TOTAL free will? God could have at least limited free will, with just ONE non-free will law. "HUMANS CANNOT KILL OTHER HUMANS." Who needs to include killing as choice? Would a lack of being able to kill someone really make us UNHAPPY! Come on...get real!
God looked down and said, "I think I'll give them TOTAL free will. If they want to kill each other it's up to them." Right! Sorry if you believe that kind of a god loves you!
Nope not starting my own religion...it's continuing.
Yep, I even have preacher types in my backround.
If you believe, good for you...you have faith!
Originally posted by ncgreg231
I am asking this mainly to TurboMike.
(10:14pm) Certainly, there will be some that think I'm completely insane. And during my moments that take up 5% of the time, I feel the same way. In my contemplations of this, this belief could be expanded to say that not only these decisions were predestined, but everything in between - my decision to have a hamburger instead of a salad (or vice versa thanks to mad cow?) The tree root that I didn't see and tripped over. Or maybe the fact that I did see the tree root and avoided it (but maybe THAT detail might have escaped my memory because it wasn't significant enough?)
Maybe someone can correct this quote (as well as include the location in the bible?) God says something like "Even before you were born, I knew you."
(10:20pm) What this means to ME is that God was saying I knew you were going to be a boy, or a girl, and you were going to be born in Bethlehem, or Atlanta, or Moscow, and you would grow up and be a math teacher, or a plumber and you would get married when you were 27 years old, and on Tuesday, November the 4th, you would have a turkey sandwich and applesauce with kool aid for lunch.
But then here's the real kicker - how can a person believe this, and believe in free will at the same time? Sometime in my future, I'm might have to chose between two jobs that I have applied for. Maybe only one application will turn into a job offer, maybe it will be neither. But I believe the outcome has already been determined. I do not yet know what it is. If this does turn out to be a case of a choice between the two job offers, God already knows what my choice will be. I might give it a lot of thought, or instead, I might decide immediately. I might not have any choice at all. I will not know what will happen until it happens. But it causes my great constipation to believe that god already knows what my choice will be!
So how is it that I really have free will? (this is in my own perspective, in any case)
(message has been submitted before completion, further thinking & typing continues as of right now, with additional words soon to be added)
10:29pm - completed.
I decided to add that my current belief is that "free will" is an illusion - we (myself included) feel we have free will, but if the truth were known, we don't really have free will. sound crazy to you?
Thanks for the PM. I haven't been coming here much lately.
Check out:
Psalm 139:1-5- God knows you.
Jeremiah 1:4-5 - God knew you before you were born
Matthew 10:30- God knows every hair on your head.
Think of it like this. God is...God. Therefore he must have foreknowledge of the past, present, future. If he didn't...he would NOT be God.
(Also remember that "time" is one of our factors, but God does not have time. A second for him could seem like a century for us.)
Use this thought... You are driving down a unfamilar road. Say a old country backroad. You come to a fork in the road. There are no signs. Which road do you take? The road that "looks" better?
The road to the right...the road to the left? Which road?
You then remember you have a map (or maybe a GPS in todays world) and you then see which road will take you were you want to be, so you turn in that direction.
Did the GPS force you to turn that direction? No, but it showed you the right direction to go.
Could you have went the other direction? Sure. What if the GPS showed you that taking the road to the right would take you were you wanted to go, but that road was dirt, and full of holes.
The road to the left was fresh pavement. Which road would you take? The obvious answer would be the dirt road because it's the right road, but many still wouldn't because it's harder. (Matthew 7:14)
When you come to the fork of the road in life YOU have to decide which road to take. If you pray for guidance God will show/help you make the right decision. Is he making the decision for you? No. Is he guiding you? I hope so.
I hope this makes sense.
Also remember that Calvinism and Arminism are the theologies of two different MEN. That means that a person CAN agree with either side or disagree with either side. But you do NOT have to pick a side. I guess I would call myself a Calvinarminism
Does this make sense?
Six people stop their car at the fork in the road. They pray for guidance that god will show/help them make the right decision. You hope he's guiding them...he's supposed to.
They drive down the road and as they round a curve a man with an uzi is in the road and opens fire, killing everyone in the car. Oops maybe god wanted everyone to have free will in killing anyone they want.
What if they went down the other road? There was another guy with an uzi down that road who was going to kill anyone in his site. Why would god allow killing? Is it because he says, "I just want them to have free will and if that means blasting the s!it out of each other, so be it!
Something is wrong in this picture. EXPLAIN THE SCENARIO, PLEASE! No one can, without some hocus-pocus faith-driven explanation.
Religion/scriptures are man made. It's Money. If a person can believe and have faith, anything can be sold to whomever.
We should not have free will to kill one another!!! Just my opinion.
Happy Holidays!
In an attempt to turn this thread back in the direction it was originally intended for, I would like to say that anyone who watches another person commit suicide for fun is a sick-minded individual! What would possess anyone to watch as another puts an end to their life? Life was meant to be lived and if you put an end to it no matter what kind of shape you are in, you're a quitter! I can see how being terminally ill can affect your outlook, but for your own sake, STAY POSITIVE!!! If you give up, then you should be ashamed of yourself! The grass may be greener on the other side, but be thankful for what you have. I am. You should all be thankful too!
Originally posted by turbo
Does this make sense?
Six people stop their car at the fork in the road. They pray for guidance that god will show/help them make the right decision. You hope he's guiding them...he's supposed to.
They drive down the road and as they round a curve a man with an uzi is in the road and opens fire, killing everyone in the car. Oops maybe god wanted everyone to have free will in killing anyone they want.
What if they went down the other road? There was another guy with an uzi down that road who was going to kill anyone in his site. Why would god allow killing? Is it because he says, "I just want them to have free will and if that means blasting the s!it out of each other, so be it!
Something is wrong in this picture. EXPLAIN THE SCENARIO, PLEASE! No one can, without some hocus-pocus faith-driven explanation.
Religion/scriptures are man made. It's Money. If a person can believe and have faith, anything can be sold to whomever.
We should not have free will to kill one another!!! Just my opinion.
Happy Holidays!
That would go back to "Why does God let bad things happen" which I believe I answered previously.
So according to your theology God should only let people make good decisions and not bad ones? If that was the case, then it wouldn't be free will. Also, like i explained in a earlier post, what one person think is right may not be what another person thinks is right (see my post about the time I worked in corrections and had to deal with the child molestor) What is a good decision to you, may not be a good decision to me. See what I'm saying?
Praying and being a Christian does not build up some force field around you. We go through losses, deaths, trials and everything too. I believe God has lead me to make alot of good decisons in my life. I do not blame him for the bads ones i've made.
To sorta answer your question... if either person on either road was NOT allowed the decision to pull the trigger, then there is NO free will for anyone and we're just puppets. Maybe God would have not told them to go down any road and just "be still.." Psalm 46:10
Okay, I've read almost every thing written in this post. I only have a couple things to say. First I'm paralyzed from my shoulders down due to a dunebuggy wreck. Ever seen Christopher Reeve? Somewhat the same thing. The night of my accident when I arrived at the hospital my heart wasn't beating and I wasn't breathing. They canceled the helicopter becuse the doctor told my friend and brother I wouldn't make the trip without dieing. So now 8 yrs. later I know that GOD brought me and my family through this. I made the free choice to climb into that dunebuggy. And I have nobody to blame but me. So I think if you haven't made a decision like this you may question Jesus. And you have a right to. But don't get upset when he doesn't give you the response you "want" I know people in my shape that say "why me god" and i say "why NOT you" what makes you so special? Have I thought of killing myself? You bet! But I haven't done it yet. and don't plan on it. I'm gonna go down swinging. So it's my opinion that if you're questioning God,Jesus,or the Bible you haven't needed them bad enough yet. But I have. So knowing that I will WALK beside him in the kingdom of heaven is enough to keep me going everyday. So if you still don't agree trade places with me for 30 days. I've got an extra wheelchair. Hows that for proof you can see? Are you willing to trade places with a crippled man to see the light? Think about it.
Bad decisions are OK. .....! I'm saying free will in everything BUT KILLING.
Killing = bad decision.....shouldn't be included as a freedom of choice. You want freedom to choose between killing a person and not killing a person? Why?
You're saying that having NO free will in the matter of killing someone, would make you feel like a puppet? I don't want to believe that.
I think the proverbs, Psalms, etc, need to be revisited and re-evaluted. Like I said faith is the only thing holding that kind of logic together.
I have nothing more to say with that kind of thought.
trbo668bird
New Member
- Joined
- Jul 7, 2002
NCGREG231
I can see some of your confusion comes from thinking that because God is omnipotent (sp?) that we can't have freewill (predestiny implies that the choice was not made by us). That is not the case, our choices are just that, our choices. God can not and will not make our choices for us if he did he would cease to be God. His way is free agency and of course consequences. Forordination is a more accurate way to look at our future, we were all forordained to be something special in this world and in the life to come, but it is contingent on us making the correct choices. Please don't think that you don't have agency, if ever you do please hit your knees and ask, believe me if you're sincere in your prayers you will get your answer.
Turbo
Why does God let people kill other people? For the same reason he lets us decide anything else. It's part of the original plan of redemption. Is killing pleasant? No, but it's part of life in this world, necessary even. Without man's desire to kill Christ wouldn't have been crucified and the atonement would have been incomplete. You read all through the scriptures where a chosen people become wicked and other wicked people come and kill and cause hardship to stir them to rememberance of there God. Did God himself single handedly come up with this plan? I think that all of us that have lived and re going to live on this Earth had part in coming up with this plan, us having bodies is proof of it. Satan's plan? No free will and all would return to live in the presence of God. Sound easy? ya, but nobody would ever know pleasure, pain, happiness, sorrow, etc. So what would be the point, mortality is given to us for our own growth and yes it does come at a price. Killing, more specificly, spilling innocent blood is a very bad thing and automaticly disqualifies a person from the atonement, the individual alone will have to atone for spilling the blood of the innocent.
As far as suicide goes, the spirit that posseses your soul in this world will posses it in the world to come.
I can see some of your confusion comes from thinking that because God is omnipotent (sp?) that we can't have freewill (predestiny implies that the choice was not made by us). That is not the case, our choices are just that, our choices. God can not and will not make our choices for us if he did he would cease to be God. His way is free agency and of course consequences. Forordination is a more accurate way to look at our future, we were all forordained to be something special in this world and in the life to come, but it is contingent on us making the correct choices. Please don't think that you don't have agency, if ever you do please hit your knees and ask, believe me if you're sincere in your prayers you will get your answer.
Turbo
Why does God let people kill other people? For the same reason he lets us decide anything else. It's part of the original plan of redemption. Is killing pleasant? No, but it's part of life in this world, necessary even. Without man's desire to kill Christ wouldn't have been crucified and the atonement would have been incomplete. You read all through the scriptures where a chosen people become wicked and other wicked people come and kill and cause hardship to stir them to rememberance of there God. Did God himself single handedly come up with this plan? I think that all of us that have lived and re going to live on this Earth had part in coming up with this plan, us having bodies is proof of it. Satan's plan? No free will and all would return to live in the presence of God. Sound easy? ya, but nobody would ever know pleasure, pain, happiness, sorrow, etc. So what would be the point, mortality is given to us for our own growth and yes it does come at a price. Killing, more specificly, spilling innocent blood is a very bad thing and automaticly disqualifies a person from the atonement, the individual alone will have to atone for spilling the blood of the innocent.
As far as suicide goes, the spirit that posseses your soul in this world will posses it in the world to come.
Your strong. Alot stronger than I. I really don't know what I would do if something happened to me like that. I figure I would be very bitter. I admire your courage and determination. I can see that you get "the big picture" and understand that we are on this earth for just a short time and then man-o-man look what's ahead! God bless you!
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