What turbo upgrade for stock converter?

[87GN&98VET]

Keep in mind the topic of this thread revolved around a stock converter.

So please tell me, what makes the billet wheel such a hot performer? I'd love to hear your explanation. If you have any maps to prove your point then please post them. Maps tell the true story, not a dyno graph.

And by the way, ball bearings do make a large difference. The frictional losses are lower compared to a journal bearing turbo. This equates to higher mechanical efficiency so in short, it takes less turbine inlet pressure to supply the compressor power required for a given pressure ratio and airflow. Low backpressure = less pumping losses = more power.

 

[JP112_89]

Keep in mind the topic of this thread revolved around a stock converter.

So please tell me, what makes the billet wheel such a hot performer? I'd love to hear your explanation. If you have any maps to prove your point then please post them. Maps tell the true story, not a dyno graph.

And by the way, ball bearings do make a large difference. The frictional losses are lower compared to a journal bearing turbo. This equates to higher mechanical efficiency so in short, it takes less turbine inlet pressure to supply the compressor power required for a given pressure ratio and airflow. Low backpressure = less pumping losses = more power.

The new billet wheel is lighter and more aerodynamic than the wheel it replaces. Also, I have "heard" the BB only spools faster to 0-5psi.

 

[TURBOGTA1]

lots of vendors here selling the old teck 44/49 turbo's that have proven 10 second ability for 595 nearly half of what the billet wheels cost.inmo if one is going to stay that small on the turbo spend the saving between the 2 and spend it in other areas that can potentially maximize the car.now step it up with a bigger wheel and i would personally want the ball-bearing option to get as close to the quick spool of the smaller wheel that the big one replaced now your really getting into $$ for just the turbo which is a piece of the puzzle when trying to make power.

Which vendor is selling a new TA-49 for $595.
Thanks.
When are the smaller Billet comp. turbos suppose to come out, and roughly how much

ANDYS87, In the same boat as you.

 

[87GN&98VET]

Ok, so the billet wheel is a new design. I was under the impression it was just a billet version of an existing wheel. Does anyone have any maps of the new wheels to compare to a good street turbo such as the TA49?

 

[Mr.Spool]

big wood racing,g-body parts,hartline perf,are selling the 44,60 etc,however you will need inmo the tighter garret housing.you could also pickup slightly used turbo's of various sizes in the for sale section of parts for even cheaper.i have no idea what the smaller billet wheels will cost but i am going to speculate they won't be cheap.

 

[Silver Fox]

There will be a new 60/62 coming out that will be the new super street turbo for us IMO. The billet comp wheel will allow it to spool like the TA49 ( 58mm wheel ) and yet the new aerodynamics of the wheel will flow somewhere around a 65mm turbo ( 65 exhaust wheel will help this turbo flow more ). Easy mid 11's on low 20psi of boost on a moderately modded GN.

Stick it in the PTE .63 and make sure you have the fuel system to keep up.

If that is too much, there will be a billet 58 that will spool faster and still make more power than the 49. The 49 turbo is dead now IMO.

Any word on when the 58 or 60 billet wheel turbos will be out, as I will be in the market soon?

Rob

 

[bison]

The 49 turbo is dead now IMO.

Maybe. But it went 10.80's on an unopened engine over 5 years ago:tongue:

 

[bison]

Billet 58 will DESTROY the TA49 and TE44 turbo.

It should on paper but real world probably not based on the sigs i see on this board. If thats true there should be a bunch of guys running 10's on un-opened engines but i dont see that happening yet. Still choked on the hot side.

 

[GNVYUS 1]

87GN&98VET, I kept in mind the OP asked about a turbo for his stock converter and since the TA49 is a 58mm cast wheel, the Billet 58 will spool FASTER and make more power, the two things we all like around here.

I already put up a relevant graph so it's your turn to show me a graph that a BB turbo made more PEAK power over just spooling up faster. :wink:
Not gonna happen since the wheels on both ends are the same and friction loss means = quicker spooling, not = more total power.

Bison you've been around long enough to know that paper theories sell turbo's, at least around here.

 

[Mr.Spool]

a graph of a turbo on a different car is far from proof and the 58 wheel isn't even out.lets just speculate about the 58 billet,how much power would this billet wheel make vs the cast?10,20,30?and how about price?if the price was close and it makes significantly more power on an actual buick then make claims.perhaps you should pull your 49 off your car and give us your opinion on the billet wheel:biggrin: i just don't see how the comp side is going to make more power by itself.if the spread on price is hundreds like i am speculating it's foolish to recommend that turbo when the money could be spent elswhere or kept in his pocket.

 

[87GN&98VET]

87GN&98VET, I kept in mind the OP asked about a turbo for his stock converter and since the TA49 is a 58mm cast wheel, the Billet 58 will spool FASTER and make more power, the two things we all like around here.

I already put up a relevant graph so it's your turn to show me a graph that a BB turbo made more PEAK power over just spooling up faster. :wink:
Not gonna happen since the wheels on both ends are the same and friction loss means = quicker spooling, not = more total power.

Bison you've been around long enough to know that paper theories sell turbo's, at least around here.

The fact the wheel is billet has nothing to do with it. The newer wheel may be better because it has a better blade design, not because it is "billet". See this link:

TurboByGarrett.com - Race Updates

As for the ball bearing turbo, when there is less mechanical friction the overall turbocharger efficiency is higher. Not only during a transient condition but also during a steady state condition. That is not theory, that is fact. Higher efficiency means the same compressor power can be made with lower turbine inlet pressure. Volumetric efficiency goes up and BSFC goes down slightly. Lower turbo speed means lower intake manifold temps. It all ends up equating to more power. Not a huge amount, but it is definitely higher. I have maps (not dyno graphs) that show a significant improvement in turbine stage efficiency with a ball bearing vs journal bearing. Unfortunately I can not distribute them because they are confidential. You can not dispute the fact that efficiency = power.

 

[GNVYUS 1]

Mr.Spool you're one tough cookie to please and the 58 will be out soon, John Wilde even has a post about it. Price of the 62/62 was $850 from Hartline Performance, even if the smaller 58 was the same price I don't see why you'd get a TA49 for even $600 ( don't know who's selling it for that price new ) to save $250 when the billet 58 will outperform it.

Also the power comes from it being a newly designed comp wheel, the billet aspect increases the strength allowing the center nut to be thinner and increasing the flow throughout the blade. A similar idea BW extended tip turbo's have been utilizing over the past few years with success.

I've also got a load on my plate this year to prove ( E85, no FMIC, twin alky and preturbo injection ) since last year the Walbro killed my head gaskets. I sure the hell wouldn't get a 58 to replace my 49 though, the 62/65 and billet 67 would be on that list.

Are we having an discussion over turbo's that the import world has already proven are better?? This will be a thread that some of you won't want to look back on. You guys realize that the GN world isn't the platform new turbo's get tested first on. I know we think we're the center of the turbo world but others don't anymore.

87GN98Vet, it's easiest to describe the new turbo's as billet vs cast to keep it clear so I do. I mentioned above why the Billet aspect is important so that aspect has a power relevance in itself.

I've seen tons of dyno's of BB and journal and not 1 had conclusive evidence of what you're claiming but if they did, every manufacturer would add that to the paper theory and that's a new one to me. But if 1-3 whp is sufficient due to BB than so be it, but then you throw the turbo map out there and that's now better proof than a dyno, which some feel isn't a REAL world scenario as is? I'll take a dyno over a turbo map in the list of proof personally but I'm not a manufacturer or racing for $$$.

This threads gone downhill and it's turned into Wonder Land vs Imagination Land with the dyno, turbo maps and track slips. Let's either start a new thread or hope the OP hasn't bought an EVO. :biggrin:

 

[87GN&98VET]

Actually looking at turbo maps is the one way you can tell the difference between turbos. Dynos have too many other variables (ambient conditions, tune, etc). I doubt you have seen dyno graphs where only the bearing cartridge was changed and nothing else.

Of course unless you are trying to squeek every last bit of HP out of the car you may not need it - one has to ask is the performance gain worth the $$.

Just trying to shed some light on separating the fact from fiction....

 

[bison]

Imo the drag strip is more of an indicator than any compressor map or dyno number. Compressor map only observes the cold side anwway. Thats not where the problem is either.

 

[GNVYUS 1]

Not to beat a dead horse but Bison's comment is why I put comp maps 3rd. The new 62/65 outperformed the old 67/76 because the cold and hot side were new wheel designs, beating it up like Van Damme in Double Impact. :wink: :redface: