why not a bigger "Biggie" oil filter adapter?

[tom h]

RJC Racing makes the Biggie adapter bushing, that allows the larger PF24 filter in place of the stock PF47/PF52.

I was holding up a PF24 to my stock mounting plate, checking clearances (it's tight but OK, about 1/8-1/4" to intercooler bracket).

I also held up a bigger PF2 (about 10-15% longer, but SAME diameter as PF24), the larger PF2 *appears* it would also fit OK!

I've asked a machine shop to quote making me a "one off" adapter for the PF2.

But if the shop doesn't want to, or is too expensive for a "one off" piece, perhaps RJC would consider making another version of the Biggie if enough of us are interested?

The only difference is in the filter threads, which I believe are:
PF2 3/4-16
PF24 13/16-16

Hence the poll -- to guage interest in a bigger Biggie filter adapter, and RJC could decide if it's worth the effort.

 

[Steve Wood]

The PF2 has different threads? I think there is a larger filter that has been used but I don't recall the number.

 

[JeffG]

Why doesn't someone make a 90* adapter that points the filter straight down? Or at least more parallel to the block then the stock set up. Sure would cure the drain back issue.

 

[TurboBob]

I think it's the fram PH11

 

[Silver 6]

I chose the PF24 version of the oil filters for the "Biggie" kits because it was a GM style filter. It has an internal anti-drainback valve, but no internal pressure by-pass valve. I believe you will find the PF2 is a Ford style filter and does have the pressure by-pass. Have your parts counter person check the specs and you will likely find this by-pass valve opens at an even lower pressure than the one already in your filter adapter. Do you want that?

Try to not get too fixed only on going bigger and bigger. Take a look at how the style of filter is constructed. If all out size is your desire, then do as GM suggests in their Free Spirit Power Book from 1980, go to a dual filter remote mount and never have a concern.

Just don't go picking up filters. Call the people who make them and find out what is in them and how they will affect your motor. That's what I did and I picked the PF24 style. I went with the Purolators in the kits because they have a better valve seal in the blow tests. And most people found they reduced or eliminated start-up knock in high mileage motors, like mine.

 

[tom h]

There's a chart listing filter thread sizes at http://www.trasko-usa.com/crossref.htm , although I would not rely on the chart for filter dimensions.

The Fram PH11 and Delco PF24 are said to have same thread size, 13/16-16.

The shortcomings of Fram filter construction have been documented in several web sites -- I have sworn off Frams after seeing some of those pictures!

At PureOil.com, the PH11 crossrefs to L30005, which is used on a bunch of 60s and some 70s cars. "Old" design filters, are they necessarily going to have modern features like drainback valves and appropriate bypasses?

 

[tom h]

David, interesting information that I was unaware of !

My rather naive screening involved holding up filters and matching diameters and rubber seal sizes ...

trying to get actual filter specs seems just about impossible unless the factory thinks you are a potential high volume customer -- no parts person I've encountered would have any access to this info!

The fact that PF24 has no internal bypass answered a question I posed in another thread -- it would definitely be bad to plug the base's bypass!

And yes, the PF2 is used on many big block Ford trucks. If the bypass opens at a lower pressure than the stock adapter's built-in bypass, you're right, that's not such a good thing.

 

[FJM568]

Compare the o-ring sealing diameter on the filters...I think that the F*rd filter has a larger diameter which won't work with our oil pump covers...If you go to a remote filter setup, then I *think* you can use a bigger diameter filter(but with no internal bypass, larger choice of filters to pick from)...But just because the thread size and the filter canister is the same size, doesn't mean that it will work...

btw, If anyone didn't know it yet, David C was one of the designer's of the Biggie oil filter setup being sold by the vendors now...He has done a lot of research on this...I talked with him on the phone literally for hours about oiling systems a such and how to do this on the hotair cars(which don't have the oil cooler adapter that the 86/7s do)...

 

[tom h]

Jim,

I did match up the PF2 and PF24 rubber seal, measured more carefully, and there IS a fraction of millimeter difference. I'd bet some money they'd both seal fine, but they are definitely not perfectly identical.

For all the good reasons cited, maybe this thread should die a merciless death .... I'm going to call up and order a standard biggie adapter, there's a LOT more thought been put into it than I relaized

 

[TurboBob]

Here's the right filter.........

http://www.nateswaterart.com/vw/oil_filter/
they are using them on FF (full flow I think) systems on VW's

Could be cool.

Bob

 

[tom h]

the Fram HP1 cross references to the Purolator L39001 and Delco HD222 (yup, that's a valid #).

What I noticed is these series of filters is they are MUCH heaver, and the shell would not deflect whatsoever when I squeezed it ... definitely more robust construction all around.

The Purolator L39001 was same physical size & thread size as the L30001/PF2, and is also a Ford truck big-block application.
It does not come in a PureONE "PL" series.

Might make a good filter for a properly thought out remote filter setup.

 

[TurboBob]

The adapter threads would be do-able by RJC
The question would be the diameter of the seal.......


Anyone........Anyone.......?

TB

 

[The Radius Kid]

Originally posted by tom h
RJC Racing makes the Biggie adapter bushing, that allows the larger PF24 filter in place of the stock PF47/PF52.

I was holding up a PF24 to my stock mounting plate, checking clearances (it's tight but OK, about 1/8-1/4" to intercooler bracket).

I also held up a bigger PF2 (about 10-15% longer, but SAME diameter as PF24), the larger PF2 *appears* it would also fit OK!

I've asked a machine shop to quote making me a "one off" adapter for the PF2.

But if the shop doesn't want to, or is too expensive for a "one off" piece, perhaps RJC would consider making another version of the Biggie if enough of us are interested?

The only difference is in the filter threads, which I believe are:
PF2 3/4-16
PF24 13/16-16

Hence the poll -- to guage interest in a bigger Biggie filter adapter, and RJC could decide if it's worth the effort.

Time to put on the flack suit.I use the filter you are looking and have had NO problems in the last 3+ years.Yes you do need an adaptor[I make them],threads are 3/4" x16 tpi.Stockers are M18 1.5.
The PF2 is 35% longer than the PF24.
The PF2 has a bypass whereas the PF24 has no bypass.
A PF1218 would be great[no bypass,same length as the 2'],but requires a different cooler adapter to seal the larger gasket.

 

[QKRNYRS]

I believe that the Fram HP4 is the PF24 equivalent to the HP1 or PH8a. Someone correct me if I'm wrong. Thanks

 

[ULYCYC]

Originally posted by QKRNYRS
I believe that the Fram HP4 is the PF24 equivalent to the HP1 or PH8a. Someone correct me if I'm wrong. Thanks

The Fram HP2 is the PF24 and fits fine but the anti-drainback valve sucks. Don't ask me how I know

 

[Silver 6]

Oil by-pass valves have a purpose and they have their liabilities. There are cars and motorcycles which came from the factory without any filter at all or just a screen. Oils are currently so good you just might be able to do the same and with regular oil changes get away without any problems. There are old VW Bugs which ran for over 100k miles without a filter.

But...we ask a lot from our motors. Ask a few people here on the list about what happens when a cam lobe rounds off, a cam bearing goes, a rod bearing goes, or a turbo. Ask about how much trash goes through an oil pressure by-pass. Ask about how much extra they spend replacing additional parts damaged by that trash. The issue isn't when things are going well, but when they go bad.

My choice is to not add an additional lower pressure, (just research and you will find it is 5-7 PSI), by-pass valve to my oil system.

 

[The Radius Kid]

Bypass or no,that's a personal choice.Bigger filter or stock,no brainer there.
Are Buicks alone in wiping cams?Nope.I remember my Cutlass with the wiped cam in the 80's[sbc,remember those?].Didn't hurt any bearings.
I had this discussion with Nick Micale a while back on the other board,and we basically agreed to disagree.However,I do respect the man's knowledge and abilities.
Now,why do you think GM bothered to engineer a bypass into the front cover in the first place if it was going to be detrimental to the engine's longevity?
Do you ever wonder how much they spend on engineering to keep their engines alive till long after the warranty is up?
Since the spring pressures and the pressure of the follower on the lobe doesn't change when the engine is cold,did you ever think that you might be causing excessive cam wear due to restricted oil flow of cold oil through the filter?Start up is where a lot of an engine's wear occurs.
Why GM set the bypass pressure at 10+ psi instead of industry standard 5-6 psi,I'll never know.Later.

 

[Red Regal T]

I got my flamesuit on. I cross thread on a Purolator 30001 on the stock nipple. The Purolator 30001 is a lot bigger than a pf-24 (too small) and I have been using it for the last 20 oil changes so I guess it works whatever the comments to come. Yes, a biggie conversion for a bigger filter than a pf 24 would be a good idea but I'll probably just keep on breaking the rules.

 

[Silver 6]

I do enjoy these discussions.

Yes GM had some wiped cams back in the 80's. They had a batch of soft Chevy cam blanks and they went round on the lobes. And each one of those engines was using a filter about the same size as the "Biggie." They just wore down over time and thousands of miles and people only noticed because of the performance dropping off. A new cam and lifters and they were back on the road. I know somehow this has to relate to the damage that occurs when one of our turbo motors has a cam wipe in under a 100 miles or a rod bearing under boost.

Why did GM go against an "industry standard" with the by-pass pressure? GM is one of the largest maker of motors in the world. I think they set standards.

I have some idea of what the engineers went through designing the oiling system for our motors. It is covered in the Buick Free Spirit Power Manual from 1980. It has a good write-up on the oiling system which was not carried over in the later Buick Power Manual. Rich George here on the list has a copy I know.

And I have some idea of what is in the major brands of filters because I discussed them with the engineering departments at AC, Purolator, K&N, and Wix, when I was researching filters for my kits.

No flame suits. This isn't personal. Its a discussion.

 

[The Radius Kid]

Yup,at least we can discuss this without a flame suit at hand.
In most lube systems,it's generally conceded that a 5 psi pressure drop is all that's allowable to avoid detrimental effects to the machinery being lubricated.This assumes that the lube system is not overkill to begin with.
Ours is not overkill,as we all know.
Blocking the bypass,IMO,is alright for a race engine that gets regular teardowns,proper warmup,etc.
But,how many guys on the street are running their cars under these circumstances?
Very few,I'd suspect.
BTW,if you're wondering on what I base my opinion,I've been trained in courses on hydraulics,pneumatics,turbines,lubrication,among others.
My official Ontario Government status is Machinist/Industrial Maintainance Mechanic.
I've had the pleasure of being taught by guys who forgot more about the subjects than I'll ever know,guys who actually taught people at GM[I do have the books for reference though].Yup,sometimes I've gotta go look things up.It's especially interesting when the boss asks me to go fix a machine worth hundreds of millions of dollars, .Somehow,though,I and sometimes the other guys get through it[all depends on what's wrong and how many guys are working on it].
The reason I rebut the blocked bypass thing,is it goes against everything I was taught about lubrication and I'd hate to see guys applying race techniques to their street cars and causing themselves major grief.
But at least we agree on the benefits of a bigger filter.
Now if I could only convince FUBAR?