WTF E-85 is the same priced as 87 octane gas

[vacuum 6]

His post justifies the background behind the 1.4x calculation that goes into the total cost of E85.

Exactly, thank you! I thought what I wrote was straight fwd but then again sometimes I write things that make zero sense but I understand it. :biggrin:

 

[MrMNTTA]

E-85 is only a good deal when oil is sky high when oil is cheaper like it is now E-85 is not cost effective,
Mike

Really?

So with 87 octane gasoline at $1.87 at approximately $60/barrel oil.....

and E85 at $1.27 isn't a good deal I guess? (32% price reduction)

If the price spread between the two fuels is usually about 60 cents(and here in Minnesota, it almost always is), it would seem to me that it's a better deal when oil's cheaper.

Very simple math.

$3.00 87 octane & $2.40 E85 (20% price reduction) isn't as good of a deal as it is today.


And let's not pretend like the automakers won't improve on E85 efficiency as time goes on.

 

[MrMNTTA]

Do the research...Ethanol only has anywhere between 30-40 energy content, which yields about 35% less gas mileage than gasoline. That's why guys running 100% E85 run a lot bigger injector per their HP level.

Ethanol on it's own is 76,100 btu's/gallon.

E85 isn't 100% ethanol (obvious)

Typical regular unleaded gasoline is 114,100 btu's/gallon.

E85 is 81,800 btu's/gallon

I think I found the website where you found your 1.4 'gallon equivalent'.

By the way, not every vehicle sees a 35% fuel economy drop by using E85. I understand that "btu's are btu's", but it's not exact, and some vehicles do better, some do not.

 

[johnnyttype]

Really?

So with 87 octane gasoline at $1.87 at approximately $60/barrel oil.....

and E85 at $1.27 isn't a good deal I guess? (32% price reduction)

If the price spread between the two fuels is usually about 60 cents, it would seem to me that it's a better deal when oil's cheaper.

Very simple math.

$3.00 87 octane & $2.40 E85 (20% price reduction) isn't as good of a deal as it is today.


And let's not pretend like the automakers won't improve on E85 efficiency as time goes on.

thats what i was thinking, and what about when it was a 60 cent difference(if that) and 87 was $4.00, on 15% price reduction!

and i hope they increase the efficiency, 13+:1 comp ratio on an ecotec would be a nice little 4 banger!

 

[MrMNTTA]

thats what i was thinking, and what about when it was a 60 cent difference(if that) and 87 was $4.00, on 15% price reduction!

and i hope they increase the efficiency, 13+:1 comp ratio on an ecotec would be a nice little 4 banger!

You're correct, when gas was $3.90 here, E85 was $3.30. (only 15.4%)

Saab's already doing it:

Saab BioPower 100 Concept E100 Ethanol Vehicle | GreenCar.com

 

[johnnyttype]

cool! nice link, i knew saab was good for something

 

[novaderrik]

His post justifies the background behind the 1.4x calculation that goes into the total cost of E85. What does yours? One data point of mpg for ~5.5 gallons of E85 consumed?

i'll admit that the mileage on that particular trip was a fluke- but i have discovered that a 50/50 mix of E85 with 87 octane gets me the exact same mileage as running straight 87 octane, and better than straight 93 octane.
but a tank of straight E85 just kills my mileage- it consistently drops from 17 to 13.
i can't wait until next year when i (hopefully) have a turbotweak chip, my stock trans rebuilt and back in, and bigger injectors to fully utilize the E85. hopefully, i will be able to stay out of the gas pedal so my gas mileage will still be good.

 

[bsdlinux]

Ethanol on it's own is 76,100 btu's/gallon.

E85 isn't 100% ethanol (obvious)

Typical regular unleaded gasoline is 114,100 btu's/gallon.

E85 is 81,800 btu's/gallon

I think I found the website where you found your 1.4 'gallon equivalent'.

By the way, not every vehicle sees a 35% fuel economy drop by using E85. I understand that "btu's are btu's", but it's not exact, and some vehicles do better, some do not.

Compression is everything with mileage in regards to E-85. Friend of mine got a pretty big drop in mileage when he used it in his Pontiac GTP vs his Camaro LT1.

 

[MrMNTTA]

i'll admit that the mileage on that particular trip was a fluke- but i have discovered that a 50/50 mix of E85 with 87 octane gets me the exact same mileage as running straight 87 octane, and better than straight 93 octane.
but a tank of straight E85 just kills my mileage- it consistently drops from 17 to 13.
i can't wait until next year when i (hopefully) have a turbotweak chip, my stock trans rebuilt and back in, and bigger injectors to fully utilize the E85. hopefully, i will be able to stay out of the gas pedal so my gas mileage will still be good.

Even 13 mpg compared to 17 mpg is only a 23.5% drop...........which is much less than the "1.4%" (40%) number that's commonly being used.

 

[vacuum 6]

Even 13 mpg compared to 17 mpg is only a 23.5% drop...........which is much less than the "1.4%" (40%) number that's commonly being used.

I just saw another ethanol article and they used 30% not 40%.

 

[MrMNTTA]

Compression is everything with mileage in regards to E-85.

+1 - I agree

 

[novaderrik]

Compression is everything with mileage in regards to E-85.

which is why i want to build a 10:1 4.1 for my T Type..
the extra cubes along with the added static compression will make for a torquey motor that gets good mileage, and the detonation resistance of the E85 will help make some crazy power at respectable boost levels.

 

[GNJimC]

Ethanol and Unleaded pricing

Here is how it works. These numbers are EXCHANGE TRADED numbers and not actual cash values at the pump. Plus, most of the ethanol is traded in the cash marketplace but they may (buyer/seller) use a +/- Chicago board price or NY board price. This stuff is traded by the rail tanker load at a minimum. Most of it is by unit trains of 25 cars or more.

RBOB (unleded gas) $1.14 per gal. ETOH (ethanol) 1.64 per gal.

a 10% blend (90% RBOB/10% ETOH) would be $1.19 per gal however the blender of record gets 51 cents per gal tax credit wich could be passed on to you, so 10% of the 51 cents is 5.1 cents which makes E-10 @$1.14.

E-85 (85% ETOH) would be $1.13 using the same formula.

This wont be the case all over the nation. Mr MMTA will have a lower ETOH price since there are quite a few plants in MN and much of it depends on how the blender of record wants to pass on the tax credits. Come Jan 1 those credits go to 45 cents per gal.

 

[MrMNTTA]

I just saw another ethanol article and they used 30% not 40%.

Don't you think it's funny how people throw around that 30% or 40% fuel mileage drop so loosely?

Even on a car that's over 20 years old (novaderrik), in this case, the drop in fuel milesage was 23.5% on a car that never had a notion of being set up for E85, let alone the "FLEX FUEL" cars being built today.

 

[GNJimC]

Ethanol blends and MPG

I was trying to find a study that was done last year that looked at different ETOH blends and a long term MPG study. They tested flex fuel cars and their same counterparts that DID NOT have the flex fuel option.

They found that at higher blends of 20-30% ETOH the flex fuel cars had the same efficency of their non flex fuel counterparts. This however was not the same for all models. The one that came to mind was the FF impalla and non FF impalla and at 30% ETOH the FF impalla received = to or even slightly better fuel milage then the non FF impalla on 87 octane.

I am searching for the study.....

When I see e-85 at steep discount like we did last spring I would run about a 40% blend in my 5.4 NON FF Expedition. I have never had a problem. I also run a blend of 50% 93 and 50% e-85 (rough blend) in my GN when I can. I have never checked the milage however.