10.50 87GN Number's Matching Mayhem

[HelloBozos]

I had this Build Totally designed to put my 87GN factory motor an heads in the 10's...
Build spec. best to my memory:
Factory Numbers matching 109 with billet mains
Stock rods,crank,an TRW forged pistons
Larger valve's Factory Number matching ported heads (by Boyde)
Ported stock intake,70mm TB
218 comp cams roller,1.65 TD rockers
TE48 turbo/22psi boost
BGC SLIC stretched an large mouthed
50lbs inj/XPR1 Red's single intank /hotwire/red's voltboosted
Number matching billet 200r4,9" non-lock 3500stall art carr
Currie bolt-in 9" 3:50 gears ,28" e.t. street tire
Stock ECM,Extender extreme custom made chip,Translator Plus on 93/Alky
Dyno tuned at 515rwhp at KDK Perf, Orlando

The Car was a Rocket!! Then at round 100mph just into 3rd Gear the Car falls on it's face consonantly .I or KDK never got the combination to run right on top end no matter what was tried. At the track it ran 11.4 119mph,1.98short,7.4 99mph 1/8th. Goodbye FELPRO head gasket (only 22psi) Video below...

This was street peddled pass i tried to get my own kind of log on the car,Watch the Accel/Hp numbers. I let out long before the dyno passes,which was likely all causing harm.

If you could get this design to work,Your Car Will Fly!!! an be Numbers Matching Factory pieces Original Build. (Sneaky,Sneaky 10 second car)
I've since gone to a Stroker 109 ,Champ Heads,gt71,72lbs,Xfi build an 3:20 gears,It fixed the problem, no more 100mph whoa's for me! But if someone can get the above to work-out,You'd be very Happy!! I tried many differant things to correct it myself ,too numberous to list,but from New tunes to the Wheel bearings checked for drag an all in between....This was 5 years ago with my build but i'm reading more an more top end spike issues surfacing. Hope this post helps out

 

[TurboBob]

it looks lean to me, o2mv in the 690's on alky is pretty lean, and doesn't match the dyno sheet A/F.

So there are lots of things that should have been done back then. Like dyno it over 100, compare DS logs between dyno and track, richen it up a lot. etc.

what is the chip number, for 50's it most likely was not an "extreme" but a regular extender.

There was an issue years ago with the alky control stuff interefering with the MAF Translators. Perhaps some of that was happening.

If you want to send me some files to look at, my email is bob<at>bailey-eng<dot>com

Bob

 

[HelloBozos]

it looks lean to me, o2mv in the 690's on alky is pretty lean, and doesn't match the dyno sheet A/F.

So there are lots of things that should have been done back then. Like dyno it over 100, compare DS logs between dyno and track, richen it up a lot. etc.

what is the chip number, for 50's it most likely was not an "extreme" but a regular extender.

There was an issue years ago with the alky control stuff interefering with the MAF Translators. Perhaps some of that was happening.

If you want to send me some files to look at, my email is bob<at>bailey-eng<dot>com

Bob

They couldn't get it to dyno over 100mph either, thats the point, thats why i posted the sheet to...no matter what was tried, the car at just over 100mph or just into 3rd falls on its face no matter how it got tuned,3 differant inj sizings,3 differant chips,3 differant ECM's starting with factory, then a quad air mod. i'll get the chip, brb

 

[HelloBozos]

Extender Extreme part # ESS57C IF
72inj, 98 octane. (My alkys was tuned on 6)
fuel psi 45psi
set dip switches ; On On On On
set MAF Base to 0 for LS1 Maf sensor,1 for 4" bittet MAF sensor

(this was the last chip, there where 2 other before it i traded in)

 

[TurboBob]

Ok this is well after the fact, but after changing the chips and injectors with no change in the symptom, it would seem like they were not the problem.

Did you ever try race gas and turning off the alky?

Did you ever watch fuel pressure?

What version Translator Plus was it?

Bob

 

[HelloBozos]

Ok this is well after the fact, but after changing the chips and injectors with no change in the symptom, it would seem like they were not the problem.

Did you ever try race gas and turning off the alky?

Did you ever watch fuel pressure?

What version Translator Plus was it?

Bob

Not sure on the race fuel,i thought they had,the chip was for 93/alky supposedly, They had the car 1 year each time,multiple dyno runs/tunings,Everything else was checked from bad wheel bearings to tranny changes to find the problem, nothing ever did,so i left that shop an went to Cal for an XFI, the problem vanished. same build in the end, same fuel.

Fuel pressures on the dyno pass sheet an 3 others,all the same, I run XPR1 (red's single intank) an red's volt booster, it didn't fall off

I sold the unit,but it said if i recall, Translator Plus, horsepower in a box. (still have the chip an quadair mod ecm).

I knew enough to not change the tune or fuel it was tuned too myself because it will Change the tune it was dyno'ed to ,so i didn't.Even tire height sizing. It felt like it ran out of gear, but i still had 3rd an o.d. to go...3:50 gear,28" et street. art car 9" 3500.built 2004r, Car was a Pure 10 second rocket till end of second gear then that was it...didn't feel mechanical, felt limiter issued...the car still had pull but only 1/2 the origianl HP (the scanlog tool readings as seen in the hp) was the RPM limiter setting in the chip to low an it just couldn't ever catch back up?

 

[Ed Valvo]

The DS shows your way lean. Really lean! When my car ran that lean, it would nose over and fall on its face. I hurt a headgasket too. I'm surprised yours wasn't popping and farting through the run. The injector DC showed you had more fuel available to throw at it. Did you try richening it up through the translator knobs? In my experience, a chassis dyno doesn't provide the same load a track pass provides therefore you'll need more fuel during an actual pass than on a dyno unless you have feedback via WBO2.

 

[TurboBuRick]

Not sure on the race fuel,i thought they had,the chip was for 93/alky supposedly, They had the car 1 year each time,multiple dyno runs/tunings,Everything else was checked from bad wheel bearings to tranny changes to find the problem, nothing ever did,so i left that shop an went to Cal for an XFI, the problem vanished. same build in the end, same fuel.

Fuel pressures on the dyno pass sheet an 3 others,all the same, I run XPR1 (red's single intank) an red's volt booster, it didn't fall off

I sold the unit,but it said if i recall, Translator Plus, horsepower in a box. (still have the chip an quadair mod ecm).

I knew enough to not change the tune or fuel it was tuned too myself because it will Change the tune it was dyno'ed to ,so i didn't.Even tire height sizing. It felt like it ran out of gear, but i still had 3rd an o.d. to go...3:50 gear,28" et street. art car 9" 3500.built 2004r, Car was a Pure 10 second rocket till end of second gear then that was it...didn't feel mechanical, felt limiter issued...the car still had pull but only 1/2 the origianl HP (the scanlog tool readings as seen in the hp) was the RPM limiter setting in the chip to low an it just couldn't ever catch back up?

We can only speculate at this point but like Bob says, the dyno sheet does not jive with the video.

Generally speaking, the engine is under the most load in 3rd and 4th gears. That's when fuel demand is at it's peak. Sounds like your fuel system was not keeping up. The only other thing it could be it a bad maf IMO.

It would have been nice to find the problem before you changed so many things. At this point it's water under the bridge.

 

[HelloBozos]

[quote="TurboBuRick, post: 3149046, member: 19444
It would have been nice to find the problem before you changed so many things. At this point it's water under the bridge.[/quote]

In the Video the car does just like the dyno,just into 3rd gear-100mph, the car falls over,(end that run i was only on 5 cylinders,headgasket ) i went 11.4 with only the first 1/8 mile blast plus a lite spin on launch, just like on the scan log i did on the street ( i had to peddle it,tune never recovers on it though over 60mph )The dyno run didn't end on the sheet, the car ended on the dyno. The car should of hit 125-130mph +

The Changes where all to try an solve the issue at hand. One by one then tested/dynoed, nothing solved it over 3 years, 3 builds,2 ecms;,3 chips etc,etc.. (each build went up in power on the dyno,but still never got into 3rd correctly an would fall over)

It's not all water under the bridge yet, Because i just might got back to this set-up if i can get it to work.(i still have the mod ECM) The first 2 gears where right on, if i could get the rest the run the same...It'd be Gone!

I'm gathering either i hit the limits on stock ECU's processing capability's, Or the Chip had a limiter not set enough,or the translator was causing conflicts or last the Alky system had conflicts,All are out my range of serviceably....Especially if it's conflict related...thats a design issue.

Whats the most reasonable an proved chip out now for Mod. ECM with car running 72lbs ,218 roller cam,gn1 heads an stoker kit ??? basically a 700hp at the motor build on alky. Like one with-out a MAF

 

[HelloBozos]

The DS shows your way lean. Really lean! When my car ran that lean, it would nose over and fall on its face. I hurt a headgasket too. I'm surprised yours wasn't popping and farting through the run. The injector DC showed you had more fuel available to throw at it. Did you try richening it up through the translator knobs? In my experience, a chassis dyno doesn't provide the same load a track pass provides therefore you'll need more fuel during an actual pass than on a dyno unless you have feedback via WBO2.

Now i 1/2 way know what i'm looking at i saw that to, 12.6-1??? well that is what that shop tunes at i guess,I didn't do anything to this build, it was all done by a local shop, but from a guy 20 years in the buick busniess. I felt the nose over on the street playing, an told him about it, he said he's having the same issue on the dyno...I thought " he" could figuer it out, i was way wrong...The car ran Exelent till end the 2nd, then just noses over. I had poping issue with the alky when it was first installed,but a reprogamed one fixed it. My foot was to fast for the processer,lol,if floored it to quick it wouldn't complie quick enough an " Pop"

 

[BEATAV8]

Never heard of KDK perf. Is it possible they just couldn't get past the problem due to not recognizing what was happening with the "not-to-common" Buick stock ECM modifications and tuning methods?

Both the Extender and the TurboTweak tuning systems are great setups to use into the 10's and even into the 9's.

 

[BEATAV8]

Watching that direct scan screen in the video sure brings back the memories.....

 

[HelloBozos]

Never heard of KDK perf. Is it possible they just couldn't get past the problem due to not recognizing what was happening with the "not-to-common" Buick stock ECM modifications and tuning methods?

Both the Extender and the TurboTweak tuning systems are great setups to use into the 10's and even into the 9's.

That's the other factor,between the way he assembles motor's an they way he tunes them, i guess he got to use to old foggy's that want a quick burst of speed on the street an not a full on 1/4 mile pass, But i expressly told him, i'm going straight to the track,tune it for 93/alky, only 21-22psi. 1/4 mile run. only got to the 1/8 mile...8^(

whats the name of the chip with speed density adjustments?

My car will go in the 10's easy with current build, into the 9's if i went all out 1/4 mile suspension.

i'll be content with 10.20.. my competetors are anything production out of detroit or from over sea's...

 

[BEATAV8]

whats the name of the chip with speed density adjustments?

That's the TTSD, SD for speed density. This is the kind of chip for guys that run around with the laptop on the car a lot. Not for the faint of heart. Works great but it's not set it and forget it like a MAF chip can be.

 

[HelloBozos]

Extender Extreme part # ESS57C IF
72inj, 98 octane. (My alkys was tuned on 6)
fuel psi 45psi
set dip switches ; On On On On
set MAF Base to 0 for LS1 Maf sensor,1 for 4" bittet MAF sensor

(this was the last chip, there where 2 other before it i traded in,first ones dyno an vid are above)

This was the last combo i tried from KDK, the above chip was from it, These are the Dyno sheet's, then the Track pass the next day out from his shop.Same as the last 3 builds, Falls over,loses HP at around 100mph on this build.
billet main same short block as above,GN1-R irons,GT-71,72 lbs,Quard air Ecm,above chip

This is the track video,(exuse the launch,it's road race set-up,full exhuast/street et's, Watch at 0:02-0:04..I pulled on the 9.80 Mustang...But as the 3 full rebuilds,tunes,chips,dyno's before, the car falls over an is done.(the next pass,11.70, i made -vs- the dragster, i dropped the #1 intake valve an broke beehive spring on the new iron GN1-r's)

The fun an expense of trying to get old things to do new tricks...

 

[SCOOBY DOO]

I run 7.1 in the Sportsman class...which is the equivalent of 11.1. Engine is an old wore out 109 with a stock ECM and a TT 5.7 chip.

 

[HelloBozos]

I run 7.1 in the Sportsman class...which is the equivalent of 11.1. Engine is an old wore out 109 with a stock ECM and a TT 5.7 chip.

I'm slowly gathering the issue's the above builds had, Maf'less is the way to go....(but that's how XFI works anyway)

 

[TurboTGuy]

Maf'less is the way to go....

What are you talking about? I go low tens all day long on a stock ECM and TT chip.

I guess what they say about opinions is right.......