but you guys go through it 2-3 times a year. Wouldn't it be easier to go through it once every couple years?
"109" Stock Block Class Racing - What's the Point Anymore?
- Thread starter Bent6
- Start date
tom robison
ALL UP IN THEM GUTZ
- Joined
- Dec 11, 2004
Not trying to change the rules, I am saying that if the rules did change I would be a player in a class that at MOST events is hurting for car count. Also, I own the stage parts I have and I am going ahead with TSO next year Like we have talked about.Although, I do have a pretty nice collection of parts for a 109 motor. Hmm
PS. I do not like cavemen
Team Banana
Well-Known Member
- Joined
- Aug 9, 2008
Good thing I am a hillbilly.
Another point to consider in the grand scheme of things is the fact that some folks might have a stage engine currently in their car or the parts to put one together but don't want to have to run in TSO. Why should stage motored cars be forced to run in the top dog classes when a simple weight concession or something could be made in some of the slower heads up classes to allow them to run? Under most of the current heads up rules you are left on the outside looking in if you want to run a more reliable stage block.
A lot of talk keeps mentioning TSM since it's the "109" class but why not consider allowing alternative blocks in THS as well? The weight penalty makes pretty good sense and stage blocks would be easy to police. The last thing this community needs is cars on the sidelines because some are unwilling to make a concession. I know I'm probably pissing into the wind on this subject but I honestly hate to see the attrition we keep experiencing overall year after year.
A lot of talk keeps mentioning TSM since it's the "109" class but why not consider allowing alternative blocks in THS as well? The weight penalty makes pretty good sense and stage blocks would be easy to police. The last thing this community needs is cars on the sidelines because some are unwilling to make a concession. I know I'm probably pissing into the wind on this subject but I honestly hate to see the attrition we keep experiencing overall year after year.
southern boost
Member
- Joined
- Feb 23, 2002
Hey Ronnie didn't we vote for rules in 2010 ?
- Joined
- Jun 28, 2001
Stage cars can still run in TSL or TSE, they are not confined to TSO. I don't see the point of this. It's a 109 block class.
TSL or TSE - now there's two dead classes.
And people get so hacked in here and wonder why when folks move on to stuff like the LSx's. Nobody likes dumping mega $$ into an engine that has a very limited life expectancy.
re-evaluating
Can't even re-member
- Joined
- Jun 5, 2001
Those 3 original rules
As you all know I was one of the original TSM racers along with Jason, Scott, Keith, Roy, Lonnie, Brett, and others and we all had a blast back then. I personally never pushed a motor hard enough to have a block fail. I had rod fail but the block wasn't the cause. At the power level these cars are at now I think the motor difference in cost is no more expensive (or little) than using a stage block. I recently saw a stage 1 3.8 sell for around $1200.
Getting back to those 3 rules the class was based on.
1. 109 block
2. 70mm turbo
3. 3550 lbs min.
These were the 3 rules that were be the foundation of the class and supposed to never change even if there were other small changes allowed.
Well toss out the turbo rule when the turbos showed up that didn't fit the plug they just tossed out the plug (the measuring stick of the rule) instead of the turbos. For me the class lost integrety at that point and I never saw a point in trying to return. The argument at the time was what, why hold back technology it sorta kind of fits the rules we want to go faster. I personally believe there have been at least a few competitors exceeding the cubic inch limit over the years but with out a measuring stick what are you going to do.
I think Will has a good idea, I for one don't want to run TSE or TSL or TSO. I am just not interested in trying to go that fast or I would just do an LSX. I might even show up for TSM with my stage block if the opportunity was there.
Jason here is a thought if you want to wake up the car count. Open it up to what ever size motor they want to run just make 250 lb difference from 109 to 4.1/TA with a slot for the 3.8 closer to the 109 end of the spectrom. You might be very surprised at the additional cars that might show up.
Just the babbling of an old guy that likes heads up racing.
As you all know I was one of the original TSM racers along with Jason, Scott, Keith, Roy, Lonnie, Brett, and others and we all had a blast back then. I personally never pushed a motor hard enough to have a block fail. I had rod fail but the block wasn't the cause. At the power level these cars are at now I think the motor difference in cost is no more expensive (or little) than using a stage block. I recently saw a stage 1 3.8 sell for around $1200.
Getting back to those 3 rules the class was based on.
1. 109 block
2. 70mm turbo
3. 3550 lbs min.
These were the 3 rules that were be the foundation of the class and supposed to never change even if there were other small changes allowed.
Well toss out the turbo rule when the turbos showed up that didn't fit the plug they just tossed out the plug (the measuring stick of the rule) instead of the turbos. For me the class lost integrety at that point and I never saw a point in trying to return. The argument at the time was what, why hold back technology it sorta kind of fits the rules we want to go faster. I personally believe there have been at least a few competitors exceeding the cubic inch limit over the years but with out a measuring stick what are you going to do.
I think Will has a good idea, I for one don't want to run TSE or TSL or TSO. I am just not interested in trying to go that fast or I would just do an LSX. I might even show up for TSM with my stage block if the opportunity was there.
Jason here is a thought if you want to wake up the car count. Open it up to what ever size motor they want to run just make 250 lb difference from 109 to 4.1/TA with a slot for the 3.8 closer to the 109 end of the spectrom. You might be very surprised at the additional cars that might show up.
Just the babbling of an old guy that likes heads up racing.
steve hughes
Well-Known Member
- Joined
- Jul 5, 2002
If stage blocks are allowed i would run TSM again. I do believe there should be a weight penalty for stage or TA blocks. As far as cubic inches it doesn't seem to make a difference if the turbo is the limit. My stage motor at 240" ran the same numbers as it did when i changed the crank and went to 260" in TSE trim with a 76 3 bolt. My 240" TSM 109 also ran the same #s as the stage motor but with a 3 bolt 70. Cubic inches aren't policed in TSM now. I ran a .075" over 109 with a 3.4" crank over 100 mid to low nine second passes in 2008 . A 109 with .075" and 3.625" crank would be almost a 260" . With a rumer of some bigger cranks out there it could go larger still. I don't think the stage blocks will go any faster than a good 109 but it would allow for a few more tuning mistakes and a little more longevity. I also understand anybody that is running TSM now not wanting to allow stage blocks in the class. It's not much of a class anymore if you only have 4 or 5 cars show up at a race either. Jason get the rules discussion started so i know what turbo to buy.
Probably wouldn't need but 3 more rules on top of the current ones:
1. ANY production built buick v6 block
2. 8 bolt headed cars 3400 lbs (who would really care about 3.8 stage 1's with 8 bolt heads, no head clamping advantage)
3. 14 bolt headed cars 3650 lbs
just a thought....
1. ANY production built buick v6 block
2. 8 bolt headed cars 3400 lbs (who would really care about 3.8 stage 1's with 8 bolt heads, no head clamping advantage)
3. 14 bolt headed cars 3650 lbs
just a thought....
- Joined
- Jun 28, 2001
TSE is only dead because the rules were re-written around 1 car.
I have to agree with Will 100%. I just do not see why anyone would want to put a very stout rotating assembley in a stock block that was not made for what they are doing today. I wieghed all the options that has been mentioned above and found that i would come out cheaper running the TA than runing the 109 in the long run. I knowed when i went this way that there was no class for me to run but i would rather have a reliable combo than worrying about the stock block than a few hundred dollars in winning a race with the TA. just my 2cents.
109 block or stage block, whats the diffrance which class you run in, **** happens to either block. Thiers really no money in most buick classes, hell I thought we were all just having fun with our cars. Winning is great but how big is your ego or your wallet.
Dave - couldn't have said it any better brother!
I like the idea of the weight spread between the 109 and the Stage blocks but I don't see how you could add 250 or even 150#s to the current 3550# weight. The only option would be something like what Clint mentioned where you let the 109 block cars drop some weight to even things out which would mean the 109 cars would become faster.
Hmmm - looks like the TSM class has almost potentially doubled already. If this were to actually happen you might even have some TSM cars that were actually streetable.
I like the idea of the weight spread between the 109 and the Stage blocks but I don't see how you could add 250 or even 150#s to the current 3550# weight. The only option would be something like what Clint mentioned where you let the 109 block cars drop some weight to even things out which would mean the 109 cars would become faster.
Hmmm - looks like the TSM class has almost potentially doubled already. If this were to actually happen you might even have some TSM cars that were actually streetable.
re-evaluating
Can't even re-member
- Joined
- Jun 5, 2001
Mike you are right either block can fail but I am not going to throw more money into a weak block for ego sake. There is no money to be won in Buick racing if that is why you are doing you are just plain simple. (not directed at you Mike just to ANYONE that thinks there is money in it)
I want to enjoy my car on the street more than just at the track and a TSO turbo or a filled stock block take a lot of fun out of that. I haven't raced since 2005 so you know I don't have the biggest wallet. I have always tried to do more with less and just have fun doing it, I have always done it for the fellowship and making new friends.
I love heads up racing win or lose but I really don't have the desire to invest what it takes to run TSO so I choose to build my car and play with where I can afford to when I can afford to. I would love it if it fell into a class so I could heads up race but there are more important things in my life than just dumping money in the Buick. I have NO intention of running brackets unless it is Q16 and I really don't even care to do that.
I would like the chance to run in TSM again after all I own a TSM car without a motor
) . I have been collecting parts for quite a while to put something back together and I still have parts from when I was running that class before. I am basiclly going to most likely rebuild my TSM car using a better block regardless of what class it fits in unless parts fall from heaven which is ver unlikely.
Will the last time I went across the scales in TSM trim I was 3690 carrying 140 lbs of ballast. The car was working so well and I qualified #1 so I left it in there. Yes I would lower the weight for 109 make a little room for 3.8 stage somewhere in the middle and heavier for 4.1. Maybe 250 is a bit much but just trying to find a starting place to open the conversation.
Does anyone know of a stage motor with a TSM legal turbo and weight that has been faster than 8.9? Just asking.
I want to enjoy my car on the street more than just at the track and a TSO turbo or a filled stock block take a lot of fun out of that. I haven't raced since 2005 so you know I don't have the biggest wallet. I have always tried to do more with less and just have fun doing it, I have always done it for the fellowship and making new friends.
I love heads up racing win or lose but I really don't have the desire to invest what it takes to run TSO so I choose to build my car and play with where I can afford to when I can afford to. I would love it if it fell into a class so I could heads up race but there are more important things in my life than just dumping money in the Buick. I have NO intention of running brackets unless it is Q16 and I really don't even care to do that.
I would like the chance to run in TSM again after all I own a TSM car without a motor
) . I have been collecting parts for quite a while to put something back together and I still have parts from when I was running that class before. I am basiclly going to most likely rebuild my TSM car using a better block regardless of what class it fits in unless parts fall from heaven which is ver unlikely.Will the last time I went across the scales in TSM trim I was 3690 carrying 140 lbs of ballast. The car was working so well and I qualified #1 so I left it in there. Yes I would lower the weight for 109 make a little room for 3.8 stage somewhere in the middle and heavier for 4.1. Maybe 250 is a bit much but just trying to find a starting place to open the conversation.
Does anyone know of a stage motor with a TSM legal turbo and weight that has been faster than 8.9? Just asking.
