"109" Stock Block Class Racing - What's the Point Anymore?

[Bent6]

Exactly Lonnie - index racing IS heads up racing. The cars can still qualify as fast as they want to set records, bragging rights or whatever.

The indexes I threw out there were low mainly so they don't limit the fast cars currently in those classes but still keep things in check. Using TSM on a 9.00 index as an example, this whole debate over allowing a stage blocked car in that class would be mute. I like to think of the index more as a check to keep a handful of cars from running away with a class and also so the majority of the silly rules wouldn't matter anymore. It wouldn't matter if you allowed a full tilt Stage 2 engine with a Pro-Mod 88mm turbo in the class - the only advantage it would have would be the ABILITY to run close to the index.

Nobody's trying to change rules to fit their particular car here - we all know that's impossible as there are WAY too many combinations out there and no way to make everyone happy. This index idea is the simplest way to take what we currently have and open it up for virtually any car to have a place to race other than brackets. If a guy want's to go faster then move up to the next index.

Clint - I like the idea of that 6.49 index. I might bring my street GN out for that one - I'll even grudge race Randy's TSM car! :biggrin:

 

[quickt]

How bout classes mandating a 2004r as the transmission used.. you break a few of those and it gets old quickly..

I was wondering the same about classes that Mandate Alcohol Injection myself.

BTW Same statement could be said about Alky and pump gas.

 

[Sydwyndr]

Guess I didn't make my point well Clint.:smile:

I know there's index racing, but with "class" racing at most of the events everyone looks at that. While classes are neat it seems to take over the mentality when you go to an event. When I joined the site there was no way for a B4Black car to even compete in any of the classes because there cars didn't fit the rules or the times and speeds. Now that we have one member that's gone 11.87 it's getting possible for the earlier cars to join in, if nothing more than to prove that they can.:smile:

My point though was that if you make a general class which allows for more variation of vehicles but keeps the basics there you can run hybreds ect in it and more can join in. You can set it up on indexes if you want but you should also consider weight as part of the rule. Wheel base may be a consideration but I wouldn't make that distinction.

With all due respect what difference does weight or wheelbase have to do when everyone is on the same goal?? I'm trying to see your point with this.

Lets say your car runs 11.20's in the 1/4 mile. The limit is lets say 11.49, and JD decided to run beside of you in this category... He has no advantage over you due to elapsed time.. Maybe his car weighs a few hundred lbs less than your car, maybe he runs a 67mm turbo AND sprays alky with his Turbo 400 tranny. The goal is you cannot run faster than 11.490. If you run faster than 11.49 in qualifying you are not thrown out OR DQ'd, That only happens during racetime. You are simply moved to the lower part of qualifying. If you qualified at your 11.20 and JD was to run lets say 10.80 or something. You are actually qualified better than he is and are in a better position to possibly defeat him... Now to your statement. Index racing IS a general class that allows more variations of vehicles that would allow the running of Hybrid cars in it so more racers can join in. The B4Black car that runs 11.87 would fit in just fine in a class designed for slower cars, such as a 12.49 index. So to keep the classes from taking over the mentality when you go to an event, Index racing eliminates ANY AND ALL RULES such as, weight, tire size, wheelbase, tranny size, Alky injection, +/- 1 inch ride height, turbo orientation, sway bars, tubular control arms, 20" wheels, fiberglass hoods, E cover inlet turbos, etc AND still provides fun for those cars that felt as if they had nowhere for their car to fit in. No longer the "land of the misfit toys". You become competitive and I can tell you that Index racing is a DRIVERS race, How much HP you can make at 15, 30, 45+psi becomes meaningless

 

[southern boost]

Hey Lonnie just like 67 was goin to keep ths in ck.

 

[quickt]

Hey Lonnie just like 67 was goin to keep ths in ck.

I was told THS was going to be 10.0 class. So far so good. Other than the Doc's 9.77 that class seems to be as planned A 10.0 class. Only more time will tell

 

[Kip]

Hey Lonnie just like 67 was goin to keep ths in ck.

That is correct Randy. After 3 years now we still have not seen the 9.50s that some predicted for the first year. Thats even after allowing the magic billet wheel 67 for two years now.

See ya, Kip

 

[toofastforyou]

This is the main problem Will. A larger portion of the cars can't fit into a specific class and it's not worth it to tear the car down to do it. Figure out a way so that the class fits the cars instead of the cars having to fit the class and then you'll have a higher car count and more participation.

X2! I'm definitely not interested to build my car so it'll "fit" in a specific class. I spent a lot of time and money to build it the way I wanted it to be and will definitely not "unbuild it for the sake of a "once-a-year" event. Also bring back bracket racing...it gives everyone fast or slow, a fair chance at winning, not only the faster cars. Specific classes and heads-up are the two main reasons why I've never attended any "big" Buick events and do not plan doing so until this changes, sorry... I know, I'm probably the only one here who doesn't like heads-up racing, but that's me.
Claude. :frown:

 

[Sydwyndr]

Also bring back bracket racing...it gives everyone fast or slow, a fair chance at winning, not only the faster cars. Specific classes and heads-up are the two main reasons why I've never attended any "big" Buick events and do not plan doing so until this changes, sorry...
Claude. :frown:

Claude I have never seen a bracket race not ran at ANY Buick event I have been to whether it is NC, OK, KY, GA or wherever... Where have you not seen it??? I know for a FACT bracket racing is ran in NC in spring and GA in the fall

 

[Slow91z]

X2! I'm definitely not interested to build my car so it'll "fit" in a specific class. I spent a lot of time and money to build it the way I wanted it to be and will definitely not "unbuild it for the sake of a "once-a-year" event. Also bring back bracket racing...it gives everyone fast or slow, a fair chance at winning, not only the faster cars. Specific classes and heads-up are the two main reasons why I've never attended any "big" Buick events and do not plan doing so until this changes, sorry... I know, I'm probably the only one here who doesn't like heads-up racing, but that's me.
Claude. :frown:

There are bracket classes at most Buick events if not all. I have no idea why someone seems to always bring this up every time someone starts a thread about heads up classes. Come to an event there's usually something for everyone to do even if they don't fit a heads up class.

 

[toofastforyou]

Claude I have never seen a bracket race not ran at ANY Buick event I have been to whether it is NC, OK, KY, GA or wherever... Where have you not seen it??? I know for a FACT bracket racing is ran in NC in spring and GA in the fall

Clint, I'm, not saying that it's not ran, only that (to me at least), it would so much fun if the classes would be run in the handicap racing style instead of heads up, a bit like NHRA does with the Stock and Super Stock classes with an index for each class. That way, like I said in my previous post, everyone would have a chance to win and not always the "first-one who-gets-to-the-end" (the key word here being "everyone"). Also I never understood why everyone here seems to hate handicap-style racing... I've always felt a little "unwelcomed" in these threads because of that.

Claude. :redface:

 

[Slow91z]

Clint, I'm, not saying that it's not ran, only that (to me at least), it would so much fun if the classes would be run in the handicap racing style instead of heads up, a bit like NHRA does with the Stock and Super Stock classes with an index for each class. That way, like I said in my previous post, everyone would have a chance to win and not always the "first-one who-gets-to-the-end" (the key word here being "everyone"). Also I never understood why everyone here seems to hate handicap-style racing... I've always felt a little "unwelcomed" in these threads because of that.

Claude. :redface:

I'm confused...Do you want to index race (Clint already said they are going to do that at the TB.com nats) or bracket race (they have bracket classes at every event I have been too, and just as an example they had 5 bracket classes at the GS nats not including Super 16). Either way what does that have to do with the classes being discussed in this thread?

 

[Sydwyndr]

Clint, I'm, not saying that it's not ran, only that (to me at least), it would so much fun if the classes would be run in the handicap racing style instead of heads up, a bit like NHRA does with the Stock and Super Stock classes with an index for each class. That way, like I said in my previous post, everyone would have a chance to win and not always the "first-one who-gets-to-the-end" (the key word here being "everyone"). Also I never understood why everyone here seems to hate handicap-style racing... I've always felt a little "unwelcomed" in these threads because of that.

Claude. :redface:

Exactly!! In index racing the first-one-that-gets-to-the-end DOES NOT always get the win! Just like in bracket racing because BOTH types of racing are "handicap-style". Have you ever broken out while bracket racing?? Sure everyone has, just a little too fast for the dial. ONLY difference between bracket and Index is style of tree... Long .5 tree vs pro .4 tree. EVERY ASPECT is identical between bracket/Index other than that. Do you disagree with that Claude??

 

[toofastforyou]

Exactly!! In index racing the first-one-that-gets-to-the-end DOES NOT always get the win! Just like in bracket racing because BOTH types of racing are "handicap-style". Have you ever broken out while bracket racing?? Sure everyone has, just a little too fast for the dial. ONLY difference between bracket and Index is style of tree... Long .5 tree vs pro .4 tree. EVERY ASPECT is identical between bracket/Index other than that. Do you disagree with that Claude??

Clint, yes I agree about bracket and index racing being similar but one with a "long" tree and the other a "short" one. I should've been clearer..., sorry.

Claude. :redface:

 

[Sydwyndr]

Will, sorry for hijack your thread....

 

[KevinB]

Back on the damn class argument lol. 20+ cars in ths, 10+ cars in tsm in bg show it still works. Bg was a great time. Shows that the racers are still there.

 

[re-evaluating]

TSM used to have a lot of cars in it too more than THS did at BG 27 cars BG 04 I think. Now it struggles to get an 8 car field at most races and I am in no way trying to take anything away from all of Jason's efforts to get it back to the way it used to be.

I want to add I think Kip and crew have done a great job with THS as well rules that make sense stick to the 3 inch cover make it simple. Maybe if I hadn't caged my car the way I did running TSM years ago I would try playing in that class.

Randy maybe you could talk to Race Jace he is running a stage motor with the TSM turbo. He said it is a blast to drive on the street spools instantly but I think you guys ran almost identical times at BG. just sayin.

By the way congrats on your new best (I think you said that) no matter awesome job.

 

[Bent6]

No big deal Clint - I don't really consider it a hijack. I'm all for the index stuff but I doubt it will ever happen.......

Some of the TSM guys here seem scared to let the Stage blocks in even with a weight penalty to increase the participation. I don't get that as it would do nothing but help that class - it could become bigger than THS. The argument that the 109 block is a staple of the class is BS - just like the 70mm turbo, factory AC, and stock steering were in the beginning but when that stuff got thrown out the window the class started losing integrity from it's beginnings as Dave has already pointed out.

The THS class obviously works and has great participation because they have stuck to their guns on the rules and so far nobody has completely run away performance - can't argue on that one. So far nobody has completely run away performance wise . I do wish they'd get rid of that stupid rear end rule though but that's just me :biggrin:.

 

[86brick]

I was told THS was going to be 10.0 class. So far so good. Other than the Doc's 9.77 that class seems to be as planned A 10.0 class. Only more time will tell

It'd bet dollars to donuts that it will be a 9.50 class when all is said and done with a few faster cars in the 9.30's-20's.

 

[KevinB]

It'd bet dollars to donuts that it will be a 9.50 class when all is said and done with a few faster cars in the 9.30's-20's.

Maybe 9.5's one day...but not anytime soon. Its actually harder than it looks imo. It took me all year to run good in ths trim. And I already had a proven engine and tune. I don't see 9.2-3's in the future. Hell, tsm is there minus Jw.

 

[THE WRAITH]

Maybe 9.5's one day...but not anytime soon. Its actually harder than it looks imo. It took me all year to run good in ths trim. And I already had a proven engine and tune. I don't see 9.2-3's in the future. Hell, tsm is there minus Jw.

IMO.... a 9.5 is not impossible in THS trim.... I do agree that if you take the bulk of the field and "average" the times you will be around a 10.0, but lets not fool ourselves in saying that THS cars are NOT capable of 9.5.... is it a long shot... yes it is more difficult than it sounds. I personally have ran "in THS qualifications or elimins" 9 or 10 different 9 sec passes....Do I have more in the car???? No one will ever know until they see it. But I am not the only car that was there... Kevin B, Clay, Jeff, John are a few more that have shown that kind of trap times. And I am certain that everyone hasnt shown their hand in what the THS Trim cars can actually run.....