"109" Stock Block Class Racing - What's the Point Anymore?

[southern boost]

WON't change any till 2013 no rule changes this year this is skip year on rule changes.

The rules are locked for 2012 already .

Tell me this how would you police the stage since they can make more cubic inch then the 109 and have more bolt hole for the heads would you make stage motors run only 8 head bolts and mandorty p&g on all stage engines limit to 260 cubic in ,also this no performance gain from a stage motor is BS i'm sorry but that the truth.

give a stage block ,gn1-r and 71 hpQ and I will give you mid 8-sec. pass.


JUST sayin

 

[southern boost]

OH crap is block suppose to be broke let me ck. nope block okay good oil pressure and by the way been runnin same block for 5 or 6 yrs .


Oh ya run 9.30 at bg with iron heads .:biggrin:


sleep good my friends

 

[Bent6]

I want to enjoy my car on the street more than just at the track and a TSO turbo or a filled stock block take a lot of fun out of that.
I love heads up racing win or lose but I really don't have the desire to invest what it takes to run TSO so I choose to build my car and play with where I can afford to when I can afford to. I would love it if it fell into a class so I could heads up race but there are more important things in my life than just dumping money in the Buick. I have NO intention of running brackets unless it is Q16 and I really don't even care to do that.

Will the last time I went across the scales in TSM trim I was 3690 carrying 140 lbs of ballast. The car was working so well and I qualified #1 so I left it in there. Yes I would lower the weight for 109 make a little room for 3.8 stage somewhere in the middle and heavier for 4.1. Maybe 250 is a bit much but just trying to find a starting place to open the conversation.

I think you and I are on the same exact page Dave. I didn't intend for this to turn into a TSM rules change discussion as I don't have a dog in that race.

I sold my tube chassis roller because it didn't fit anything anymore other than just running for the fun of it. I still have the complete Stage2 engine program from that car and have considered TSO but it doesn't make sense right now since I'm heading down the LSx road with the new GS project (which will be an outcast too:biggrin:). My street GN is all I have for the time being and like you I chose to build it my way rather than around any of the current class rules. It would be nice if it happened to fit into something but at the end of the day I want to keep it streetable and reliable which is like asking for cake and ice cream with a 109 block at the current performance levels.

If a man wants to keep dressing up 109 blocks in girdles, caps, bras, panties, cement, duct tape, bailing wire, glue, etc I guess that's his choice..........not for me though!

-Just Sayin' :biggrin:

 

[Sydwyndr]

Will another thing that I have been getting some flack over is Index racing. If I had a 1/4 mile event, this is what I would like to see ran:

Quick 8 - (tube cars, dragsters, anything Buick bodied OR powered)
8.50 - (TSO, TSL)
9.50 - (TSM)
10.50 - (THS)
11.50 - (TSA or whatever else)
Outlaw 109 - (for those wanting to see how far the stock block will live)
275 Radial - (Anything goes)
bracket racing
Julios class he tried to make at BG

Here is the inherent problem that some racers have that they never consider and this is why I like the 1/8th mile... As a spectator I personally like to see close side by side racing.. What good does it do to, lets say, have a class with 4-6 cars in it racing as to where one car has the field covered by 4-6 car lengths at the end of the track?? I want to see close racing action. NASCAR wouldn't be any fun if they werent bumper to bumper IMHO... I would MUCH rather see a field of 10-20 cars running a close side by side race to the finishline, and I believe the only way to get consistancy and, who cares about ANY rules, is index racing. Without the fans and spectators we would not have events to go and to race at anymore and that is where many people have blinders and dont really think about the connection of (no good close racing action, no spectators). So we have to determin the BEST way to bring fans in to watch racing to make it exciting, and to help with expenses, is to make for tight racing. And with the above times ANYBODY no matter what you have done to your car will have a place to go and to have fun... I am running index in May at the TB.com race (8.49, 7.49 and not sure if 6.99 or 6.49). I personally wish more people would be open minded enough to at least give it a go...

 

[southern boost]

Clint there are simply 2 many classes now, build a car for class already going .

I like heads -up myself ,but more classes just hurt car count more TSM had 10 car count at bg and will have that or better the carolina race ,more classes along with a crappy economy will not help car count at any event.


Just my ,02

 

[southern boost]

Hey Will you funny guy my old 109 has a girdle that it ,same girdle it had when i bought it quite few yrs back .

I seen alot of stage carnage over the years when they are pushed .

 

[quickt]

give a stage block ,gn1-r and 71 hpQ and I will give you mid 8-sec. pass.


JUST sayin

Hi Randy,
I would disagree. With the current 71 turbo mid 8s IMO would not be possible. Assuming 274" a 71 would be a mismatch. I would be willing to bet that Don's old TSM combo or JW would have a hard time with those cubes to even come close to their current level of performance. Its all about air flow and that 71 would be used up on a 274 easily. If you map 250" using that turbo its a perfect match. I think it would be very interesting to have a TSM outlaw race at one of the events and allow a stage block rule for that one event just to see what happens.

 

[Bent6]

I brought the same thing up a while back and caught flack over it Clint. The ones resistant to change are usually those who the current rules are playing into their favor. I will agree with Randy in that we don't need any more classes. My idea was pretty much the same - take the current classes, ditch most of the rules and run them on an index. What I don't think some get is the fact you can qualify as fast as you want - the index only applies to eliminations which is where most dial it back a bit in order to go rounds anyway. There are so many cars on the sidelines because they don't fit a class and don't want to have to change a bunch of stuff to make their cars fit a class.

Here is what I think would be ideal - could still have a few simple rules such as turbo limitations ortire sizes if that would make everyone happy.

TSO 8.00
TSM 9.00
THS10.00
Outlaw 275

 

[Sydwyndr]

Clint there are simply 2 many classes now, build a car for class already going .

I like heads -up myself ,but more classes just hurt car count more TSM had 10 car count at bg and will have that or better the carolina race ,more classes along with a crappy economy will not help car count at any event.


Just my ,02

Randy I feel ya completely, But.... You didn't see TSM on there did you?? I simply made references to it based on times. I'm saying do away with "T" classes ALL TOGETHER and go simply Index racing and Bracket racing. I know that will not be popular AT ALL with the masses... I believe you have to think above and beyond the norm, that is a key to help the Buick community survive. Randy wait until you see "tag team" in NC. You ain't never seen anything like it, but it is a great time :biggrin:

Not to mention you would be VERY competitive in a 9.50 heads up class and not 4 tenths behind the #1 qualifier

 

[charlief1]

There are so many cars on the sidelines because they don't fit a class and don't want to have to change a bunch of stuff to make their cars fit a class.

This is the main problem Will. A larger portion of the cars can't fit into a specific class and it's not worth it to tear the car down to do it. Figure out a way so that the class fits the cars instead of the cars having to fit the class and then you'll have a higher car count and more participation.

 

[Sydwyndr]

I brought the same thing up a while back and caught flack over it Clint. The ones resistant to change are usually those who the current rules are playing into their favor. I will agree with Randy in that we don't need any more classes. My idea was pretty much the same - take the current classes, ditch most of the rules and run them on an index. What I don't think some get is the fact you can qualify as fast as you want - the index only applies to eliminations which is where most dial it back a bit in order to go rounds anyway. There are so many cars on the sidelines because they don't fit a class and don't want to have to change a bunch of stuff to make their cars fit a class.

Here is what I think would be ideal - could still have a few simple rules such as turbo limitations ortire sizes if that would make everyone happy.

TSO 8.00
TSM 9.00
THS10.00
Outlaw 275

I would agree with all with the exceptions of the ET's. How many TSM cars can run 9 flat?? I only know of 1 current one and it has its tounge hangin over the front of the grill to get there:biggrin:. 8.50 for TSO, TSL might even be a strech as well. May need to be 8.99 even. So like Will is stating here this is not to ADD any new classes, this is to revamp the current classes as you know it to be able to...
A. increase car count a race participation
B. Not have to run the hell out of it just in case the (bailing wire) decides to fail.

I also think that there needs to be some kinda of stock block outlaw class for those wanting to see just how far a 109 will go. Not sure how many cars that would draw to a class suck as that, however I dont think it will be very many. The 10.50 class could have 30+ cars in it. Who knows. Just gotta get folks to drink the koolaide as it were

 

[Sydwyndr]

This is the main problem Will. A larger portion of the cars can't fit into a specific class and it's not worth it to tear the car down to do it. Figure out a way so that the class fits the cars instead of the cars having to fit the class and then you'll have a higher car count and more participation.

Also known as...... Index racing. There is the fix to your exact statement.

 

[SGRIM]

Also known as...... Index racing. There is the fix to your exact statement.

I see the "fun" in the index classes... Still got to have heads up racing to keep it interesting, IMO:biggrin:

 

[Sydwyndr]

Randy lemme challenge you to something....

I will run a 6.49 index race on FRIDAY in NC and TSM on Saturday. That will give you a chance to see exactly what index racing is all about. Get yourself, JW, Team Banana, or whoever else you want so you can see how index racing is exciting and MUCH easier on parts. I bet you, JW, and others would have to kill 10+ psi just to slow your car down to 6.49. Hell even most THS cars are 6.49 in the 1/8th mile. With that being said the 6.49 index would have 16+ cars in it. You might see JW run Kevin B, or yourself running against Sean Hayes first round, who knows... The biggest thing is don't knock it til you try it and I'm not saying that you or anyone else in particular are...

What say you??

 

[KevinB]

I would run your 6.5 class on Friday. That would be fun. It will honestly be my first taste of index racing ever.

 

[sackracing]

Everybody wants to change the rules to fit their cars, worked out good in TSS and TSE.

 

[Mike E]

Everybody wants to change the rules to fit their cars, worked out good in TSS and TSE.

I don't think that's whats going on here. Bent6 currently has a stock block car and a stage 2 headed motor. I've got a stage 2 headed motor. Neither of us are asking to allow stage 2 heads. KevinB has a TSM legal motor, but doesn't want to risk parts breakage. Sounds like Dave England has parts to build a TSM legal motor but doesn't want the unreliablitly of a stock block. Everyone that wants the stage block to be legal is willing to make changes to run the class.

My motor fits perfectly in TSO, but I have no desire to push everything to low 8's. I just want to have a reliable relatively quick car that I can compete locally with and go to a few buick events througout the year. Even if a stage block is allowed, it's going to take new comers quite a while to refine their combinations to go low 9's. The people at the top of the class will still be at the top of the class because of their knowledge of what it takes to make the cars run. Maybe the Stage block has more potential, but it still takes experience to use all that potential.

 

[sackracing]

Isn't TSL for stage motors with 74 turbos? Why don't you guys try to adjust those rules to fit what you're discussing and revive that class?

 

[quickt]

I see the "fun" in the index classes... Still got to have heads up racing to keep it interesting, IMO:biggrin:

Index racing is Heads up Racing.

 

[charlief1]

Also known as...... Index racing. There is the fix to your exact statement.

Guess I didn't make my point well Clint.:smile:

I know there's index racing, but with "class" racing at most of the events everyone looks at that. While classes are neat it seems to take over the mentality when you go to an event. When I joined the site there was no way for a B4Black car to even compete in any of the classes because there cars didn't fit the rules or the times and speeds. Now that we have one member that's gone 11.87 it's getting possible for the earlier cars to join in, if nothing more than to prove that they can.:smile:

My point though was that if you make a general class which allows for more variation of vehicles but keeps the basics there you can run hybreds ect in it and more can join in. You can set it up on indexes if you want but you should also consider weight as part of the rule. Wheel base may be a consideration but I wouldn't make that distinction.