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4.1 trash!!!

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robzombie said:
My point is that you don't need a 4.1 and the 3.8 is a proven performer at high horsepower levels.

The 4.1 has been shown that it has it's share of problems staying together more so than the 3.8 does.


What's your point? Those numbers can be achieved with a properly built 3.8.
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One of my reasons I am running a production 4.1 block in my race car is to prove guys like you wrong! ;)

So far, it is working out fine as I have about 50 low 10, high 9 sec passes with it, and like Clint said, it ran a 9.70 at 18 psi an the 3100" track in Tucson.

The "issues" I am having is because I have converted the fuel from 116 octane, and my boost controller had a problem that I finally found this week.

I do not know how many 4.1 turbo Buick builds you have done successfully, but I have done many of these for customers as well as myself.

Logic and numbers will tell you a bigger bore 4.1 will always out-perform a comparable 3.8, and my experience shows the 4.1 is just as reliable.

I personally know of many 109 blocks that have had internal structural failures, so unless you have a large data bank of 3.8 vs. 4.1 blocks and their failures, you are only blowing hot air without any facts to back you up?
 
007gn said:
........... the 4.1 is not worth switching over to.this is just a bunch of bs hype for engine builders to get more money into their pockets....don't waste your time & money on the 4.1 stick with the sucsessful & proven 3.8 . the REAL RACERS and GM engineers knew all of this stuff a long time ago.Now they are just sitting back letting guys like myself bump our heads and learn the hard way.my name is Shannon & I live in Detroit.The 3.8 is the true KING and the best block for your turbo buick.
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Maybe you are a little bitter as it sound like you have been trying to keep up with some of my customers in Detroit that are able to properly set up and tune their 4.1's! :LOL:
 
Nick Micale said:
One of my reasons I am running a production 4.1 block in my race car is to prove guys like you wrong! ;)

So far, it is working out fine as I have about 50 low 10, high 9 sec passes with it, and like Clint said, it ran a 9.70 at 18 psi an the 3100" track in Tucson.

The "issues" I am having is because I have converted the fuel from 116 octane, and my boost controller had a problem that I finally found this week.

I do not know how many 4.1 turbo Buick builds you have done successfully, but I have done many of these for customers as well as myself.

Logic and numbers will tell you a bigger bore 4.1 will always out-perform a comparable 3.8, and my experience shows the 4.1 is just as reliable.

I personally know of many 109 blocks that have had internal structural failures, so unless you have a large data bank of 3.8 vs. 4.1 blocks and their failures, you are only blowing hot air without any facts to back you up?
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That's fine Nick keep up the good work and I hope you have continued success.

Facts are facts and the 4.1 isn't cast as strong as the 3.8 turbo blocks.

When you get a 4.1 to run 30 plus lbs. of boost without filling the block with filler and make 200 passes and 50,000 street miles let me know, I might be interested.

Don't take this the wrong way I'm not disrespecting you but 18 lbs of boost is nothing to brag about. I know that there is no replacement for displacement and the the 4.1 might make a good low boost street motor that can run the numbers you're running, but a stroked 3.8 will do the same thing and has a better track record for longevity.

I'm also concerned that while you may have the ability to do it since you've spent so much time with them you know what it takes to keep it alive. How forgiving is a 4.1 on a marginal tune versus a 3.8? We all make mistakes or push it further than we should, I'd rather be running a 3.8 when that happens.

While I've never built a 4.1 I feel that there is still enough info out there that shows how marginal they are in a high boost application and I don't feel the need to be a guinea pig and throw a butt load of money in the toilet on something that may or may not live.

I'm open minded and when the 4.1 gets to the point of recognition that the 3.8 has I'll let you build me a killer 4.1. I do hope that you do find a way to make them live and hopefully at 30 plus lbs. of boost because that would make a killer motor that would keep the TR competitive and maybe stop all the LS swaps that people do to these cars which ruins the soul of the TR in my opinion.

Keep up the good work and fight the good fight and make it happen so I can become a believer of the 4.1.
 
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The boost is less because it does more with volume. I have a 4.1 that's been sitting for years....eying it for a N/A build.:)

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When then engine swallows more CFMs (and burns it) the boost reading goes down.
 
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I'd really like to hear what Heisenburg would say about all of this but until then all we can do is speculate.

007, I would build one more 4.1 just to make sure that your findings are correct. Maybe try another machine shop?
 
turboclam said:
I'd really like to hear what Heisenburg would say about all of this but until then all we can do is speculate.

007, I would build one more 4.1 just to make sure that your findings are correct. Maybe try another machine shop?
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Either that or if Nick can make them live for a long time at 25 plus lbs. for at least 500 passes and many street miles, he would be the 4.1 magician and make a lot of money selling them.

I'd love to see it happen if for no other reason than that we would have another option that would be a reliable performer.

As Earl and others have said more CFM/volume is what the 4.1 provides, but what people are leaving out is that you are essentially doing that with a turbo and while in theory [right now] a 4.1 sounds like a better solution it's not. If a stroked 3.8 can take 30 lbs. and a 4.1 can only take 20/22 lbs. reliably than what would you rather have?

I would rather run a stroked 3.8 and run 30 plus lbs. boost knowing it will take it versus a 4.1 and hitting 25/26 lbs. and splitting the damn block.

Now if there was a stroked 4.1 displacing 5.0 and and ran in the 8's at 15lbs. of boost we would have a winner.
 
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robzombie said:
Either that or if Nick can make them live for a long time at 25 plus lbs. for at least 500 passes and many street miles, he would be the 4.1 magician and make a lot of money selling them.

I'd love to see it happen if for no other reason than that we would have another option that would be a reliable performer.

As Earl and others have said more CFM/volume is what the 4.1 provides, but what people are leaving out is that you are essentially doing that with a turbo and while in theory [right now] a 4.1 sounds like a better solution it's not. If a stroked 3.8 can take 30 lbs. and a 4.1 can only take 20/22 lbs. reliably than what would you rather have?

I would rather run a stroked 3.8 and run 30 plus lbs. boost knowing it will take it versus a 4.1 and hitting 25/26 lbs. and splitting the damn block.

Now if there was a stroked 4.1 displacing 5.0 and and ran in the 8's at 15lbs. of boost we would have a winner.
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Why run 30# of boost when you can do the same thing or better @18# like Nick does. You are a fool to be proud to run 30#+ of boost to run 9.9s when you can turn around and run 9.7s @18#. It is more impressive to run faster with little. Trust me, Nick will run more boost since he has fixed his boost issue and the block will last.
 
This seems like a dong measuring competition. A 109 needs more boost to do what a 4.1 theoretically can. Look at the V8 turbo guys. Making 600 HP on 10-12 psi. Volume my man, volume.

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And at lower rpms I might add. The 6's need to rev to consume what a larger bore does.

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CGASTON said:
Why run 30# of boost when you can do the same thing or better @18# like Nick does. You are a fool to be proud to run 30#+ of boost to run 9.9s when you can turn around and run 9.7s @18#. It is more impressive to run faster with little. Trust me, Nick will run more boost since he has fixed his boost issue and the block will last.
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I hope so. I guess we will see when that happens.

I'm not a fool, I'm just comparing apples to oranges. You could run the same numbers with a stroked 3.8 as a 4.1 at the same boost levels, but have the ability to wick up the boost with a 3.8 that isn't really feasible to do with a 4.1.

What I guess I'm trying to say is that you are locked in at low boost levels with a 4.1 and a 3.8 isn't ham stringed like the 4.1 and you can push the 3.8 blocks harder than a 4.1.

Hopefully that can be overcome by someone but I won't hold my breath as we're dealing with metallurgy as well as casting design and web thickness.

Is running high 9's with low boost impressive? Yeah, but if you want to run faster right now you need a 109 block if we are comparing production non special blocks like TA or stage II blocks.

What's the difference if you have 4.1 cubes out of a 109 versus a non bored factory 4.1????

I'll tell you, as of now for me longevity is the most important determining factor.

I'm not bashing the 4.1 supporters, it's just not a proven option right now. If it was you would see them on the track setting records and 109s would be relegated to street duty only if they weren't still getting the job done.

I hope it comes to fruition some day that 4.1 production blocks get a better reputation, but as of a 03/08/14 they don't. May the people involved with them continue to have success and be able to change that.
 
This seems like a dong measuring competition.
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No, just an education lesson in a special needs classroom from how see it.:rolleyes:

I don't swing from anyone's dick and just look at the facts as presented to me.
 
robzombie said:
No, just an education lesson in a special needs classroom from how see it.:rolleyes:

I don't swing from anyone's dick and just look at the facts as presented to me.
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I was not insinuating any swinging of any kind. I'm sorry if it came across that way...not my intention. It was more aimed at the "mine runs more boost than yours". At the traps, if I ran an identical time as yours but with let's say 18 psi to the competitors 28.....I'd say my point was proven. I have no real world data to back up my assumption....but Nick does. :)

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notacarlo said:
I was not insinuating any swinging of any kind. I'm sorry if it came across that way...not my intention. It was more aimed at the "mine runs more boost than yours". At the traps, if I ran an identical time as yours but with let's say 18 psi to the competitors 28.....I'd say my point was proven. I have no real world data to back up my assumption....but Nick does. :)

Posted from the TurboBuick.Com mobile app
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I'm not trying to start a pissing contest either. I would love to have a 4.1 that runs like hell, I just want to know it would take the abuse I would give it.

Until data proves the 4.1 a superior platform for power and reliability we'll just have to agree that we disagree on some of the issues.

Let's move onward and upward and leave the petty bickering for our wives.
 
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