4L80E conversion. Is it worth it?

[chris kirk]

I'm trying to make a decision between using a 4L80E or staying with a 200. I don't want to use a 400. I want overdrive. I know there are several threads out there (because I've read them) about people converting to the 4L80E, so I apologize for the redundancy. It's not my intention to ask "how good is it", but rather what exactly is involved. Does it fit/making it fit, the drive ability, and was/is the performance worth it. I'm getting close to putting my car back together so I have to make a decision on a transmission very soon (a month or so). I already have a good idea what's involved (Lonnie and Dusty Bradford) and they were very helpful. I would also like to hear from some people who have actually made the conversion. The details..... The intended use of my car is strictly a hobby, so if I were to drive it more then a 1k miles a year that would probably be a lot. Therefore, my concern isn't street driving, but rather the time I spend with it at the track. I understand that track launches are pretty rough on the tranny and rear (amongst other things as well). The big question is how much track time and unfortunately I can't answer that. It might be 20/30 passes/times a year, or it could be 70/80 passes a year. I realize it may be difficult in forming an educated opinion with it being that vague, therefore, I apologize. Some things I'd like to know:

1. How much (if at all) do you have to "massage" the floor boards for it to fit under the car.

2. What are the convertor options. Are they limited? Single disk? Multi disk?

3. Electronic shift points. Are they difficult to set up? Is it better with the option of the electronic shift points?

4. What type of electronic shift controller. Can I use a FAST XFI controller?

5. Using it with an XFI 2.0 engine management.

6. Speedometer. Buick has a mechanical speedo. The 4L80E is electronic.

7. Gear ratio. Do you lose 1st gear? Dose that effect normal street drive ability?

The miscellaneous stuff like the cross-member, trans mount, driveshaft, bolt pattern.... doesn't concern me. I'll buy a new cross-member and mount, I have to have a driveshaft made anyway, and I have a TA aluminum block that has the correct bolt pattern for the 4L80E. I've read some things on the internet about some people having trouble with the speedo, shift points, reverse gear, and reverse lights. It didn't say anything about their applications and/or who did the work, so I don't know how knowledgeable they were with doing the conversion.

 

[2QUICK2B6]

id go 400

 

[robzombie]

From what you've said it sounds like you're building a track car that will see minimal street use.

Knowing that you already talked to Lonnie and Dusty I'm sure they both recommended the TH400 for your needs as it would be the best choice for you if going into the low 9's and faster. If you really want to stay with an O/D unit then the HP/ET will dictate what you you need, not want.

You didn't elaborate on the HP that your engine will be making or your ET goals so it's really hard to say what would be better for you. If you're making 800hp or less I'd stay with the 2004r because I know that Lonnie will recommend the stage III up to about the 800/900hp level before he recommends the TH400.

To me the added expense of the 4L80E isn't worth the cost and aggravation in a car that will see a thousand or so miles a year.

If money is of no concern than sure you can have a custom converter built and have the trans built with better gear ratios and so on.

For what you will spend on the 4L80E conversion you could purchase three or four highly built 2004r or TH400's.

Think about it this way, do you really want to spend three times the money just to have a TH400 with OD???

If I were building a pro tour car I might be able to see the point of the putting the 4L80E in my car.

I'm sorry that I didn't answer any of your original questions and if you didn't get the answer you were looking for from Lonnie or Dusty than you probably won't get the answer here either.

If you do go the 4L80E route would you please document it for others to see as I can tell that you are a guy that takes no shortcuts and wants the best quality in what you build and it would be great for others that will consider this swap.

It would be nice to know the true cost and time needed to do a quality install of that unit in our cars.

 

[Dusty Bradford]

Therefore, my concern isn't street driving, but rather the time I spend with it at the track.


2. What are the convertor options. Are they limited? Single disk? Multi disk?



4. What type of electronic shift controller. Can I use a FAST XFI controller?


5. Using it with an XFI 2.0 engine management.



7. Gear ratio. Do you lose 1st gear? Dose that effect normal street drive ability?

I'll comment here so we have everything documented if anyone else is looking at this also.

My 1st question would be. What et are you looking for?

2nd question.....If your concern is more focused on the track than the street why do you want overdrive? OD is really only for guys who are looking to run 70mph down the interstate on long trips.

The converter options are opening up but as far as the Buick's needs you have the GM245 which is known as the 9.5" and 10" choices. These will be billet lock-up's in either single disc or triple disc. I do have the capability now to build the 9.5 NLU which has been used in the LS market for guys running 8's with 80E street cars. I also can build GM258mm and 265mm lock-ups in billet single and triple disc but those choices will be to tight down low for the V6 to spool.

As far as I know 2.0 will not control the 80e. FAST may have an extra box that will run it or there are other separate boxes that can run it as a stand alone.

You will not loose 1st gear. Some trans brakes have the capability to launch off a trans brake in 2nd gear but IMO it's not useful in the V6 application. This is commonly used in the racing world in T400's by cars with 2000+hp.

 

[chris kirk]

I'll comment here so we have everything documented if anyone else is looking at this also.

My 1st question would be. What et are you looking for?

2nd question.....If your concern is more focused on the track than the street why do you want overdrive? OD is really only for guys who are looking to run 70mph down the interstate on long trips.

The converter options are opening up but as far as the Buick's needs you have the GM245 which is known as the 9.5" and 10" choices. These will be billet lock-up's in either single disc or triple disc. I do have the capability now to build the 9.5 NLU which has been used in the LS market for guys running 8's with 80E street cars. I also can build GM258mm and 265mm lock-ups in billet single and triple disc but those choices will be to tight down low for the V6 to spool.

As far as I know 2.0 will not control the 80e. FAST may have an extra box that will run it or there are other separate boxes that can run it as a stand alone.

You will not loose 1st gear. Some trans brakes have the capability to launch off a trans brake in 2nd gear but IMO it's not useful in the V6 application. This is commonly used in the racing world in T400's by cars with 2000+hp.

I can't really tell you et time because the motor/car has never been set up. So I just don't know. The motor is still on the same pallet it was shipped on a year and a half ago. Same with the rear that I bought last June, and the rest of the car is in about a thousand pieces. I hope that makes sense. Sorry if it doesn't. The reason I want overdrive is so I have the option of driving it any type of distance on the street should I desire to do so and not worry about burning the transmission up. Driving it far distances probably won't happen often, but if it does I would like to be able to do so. Like I've said in the past, I realize there are some drive-ability issues I will have to sacrifice for performance, just as there are some performance issues I will have to sacrifice for drive-ability. When we spoke (over a year ago) you said the same thing that Lonnie said to me two weeks ago. Which was 700/800+ hp is border line for a 200. Then when you factor in how much track time (how many times you launch the car) then that is the deciding factor. How much track time? I don't know. Lonnie thinks the 200 with 20+ passes and aprox 5k street miles a year will be fine. Now that kind of street time will never happen with me, I'm to busy with other things and the car is not a daily driver. Also, which ever one I decide to use I want to get the convertor from you. I appreciate your time.

 

[TexasT]

I think that you should put the frame together, get the body onto the frame, get it assembled and the ready to drop the engine in before even considering which way to go with the trans. You seem to be at an analysis paralysis place. Get further along in your progress unless you think that the cross member position is holding you up. If so, buy a 4l80e case so you can get that squared away and keep the project moving.

 

[chris kirk]

I think that you should put the frame together, get the body onto the frame, get it assembled and the ready to drop the engine in before even considering which way to go with the trans. You seem to be at an analysis paralysis place. Get further along in your progress unless you think that the cross member position is holding you up. If so, buy a 4l80e case so you can get that squared away and keep the project moving.

That's one option, but that would really only give me about an extra week. Once the frame is completed setting the chassis back on the frame and finishing the rest of the body assembly isn't that much work. Everything is painted and ready to be put back together. I don't want to finish the under carriage fist, then decide to use a 4L80E. I don't mind doing that with a 200 because I know it will fit properly. Also, IMO I think it's easier (so does the person assembling it) to set the motor and trans on the frame and then drop the body on it. On another note, I thought there were more people out there that have made the conversion from the 200 to a 4L80E. When I posted the question I had hoped to had gotten some/more "personal experiences." But please don't take it that I don't appreciate ALL advice because I do. I have no tech experience or knowledge so every bit of opinion/knowledge from experienced people like yourself and Dusty (and every knowledge person out there) I dearly value and appreciate.

 

[TexasT]

Plenty of builders who can build a 2004r that runs 11 all day. Not a bunch of call for going faster. If that becomes an issue most go th400 as it becomes a track car.
Get up with eticket on here he has a lot of insight on a 4l80e swap.

 

[Dusty Bradford]

Eticket put the 80e into his car. I have worked on that car when a local here bought it but I'm not sure if any trans tunnel mods are necessary. I never paid that much attention to it. I'd guess if mods are necessary, you would go ahead and install the engine and trans where you want it, then try sitting the body on the car, mark any areas that need to be changed then take the body back off for the mods.

 

[Eticket]

I think the only mod I did on the car was flatten the body seem a little.. I don't remember that even being a requirement though.. just made things clear a little easier.

 

[Eticket]

I would have loved to have. PTC at the time I had that car with the 80e. Converter was a major drawback at the time... do yourself a favor and at least buy a converter from dusty if you do this.

 

[Pronto]

Looks like you have a pile of work to do without adding the conversion to a 4l80 too. Imho I'd go the 400 route. Tried and true and cheaper.

 

[NY Twin Turbo]

I thought I would be unhappy with a 400. I did everything to avoid a 3 speed. When I burned up the second 200, I was told by Jack Cotton I would be wasting my time with another 200. He had Lonnie build me a reverse manual valve-body 400 with a trans-brake. And I figured I would put a Gear-Vendor's Overdrive in it soon thereafter.

Let me be perfectly clear. I drive my car a lot! And long distances. It has a twin-turbo stage motor in it with 8 second potential. As of now, I haven't towed/trailered it anywhere. Read my signature below. And I am happy to say I don't miss overdrive!

Yes, it takes a few days to get used to. After that........I never looked back.

Iv'e gone a little further to protect it from heat building from long distance driving. I have the standard tranny-temp gauge and a trans-cooler with a fan up front. But I also have a Tildon auxiliary pump on a switch. This pumps the pan fluid through another big cooler on a fan under the back. This comes in handy after a blast on the highway or at the track to cool things down in a hurry.

If you miss overdrive on a car you only drive 1000 miles a year...........well, you may have way too much money and you should send me some.

 

[chris kirk]

Plenty of builders who can build a 2004r that runs 11 all day. Not a bunch of call for going faster. If that becomes an issue most go th400 as it becomes a track car.
Get up with eticket on here he has a lot of insight on a 4l80e swap.

Thank you!

 

[chris kirk]

I thought I would be unhappy with a 400. I did everything to avoid a 3 speed. When I burned up the second 200, I was told by Jack Cotton I would be wasting my time with another 200. He had Lonnie build me a reverse manual valve-body 400 with a trans-brake. And I figured I would put a Gear-Vendor's Overdrive in it soon thereafter.

Let me be perfectly clear. I drive my car a lot! And long distances. It has a twin-turbo stage motor in it with 8 second potential. As of now, I haven't towed/trailered it anywhere. Read my signature below. And I am happy to say I don't miss overdrive!

Yes, it takes a few days to get used to. After that........I never looked back.

Iv'e gone a little further to protect it from heat building from long distance driving. I have the standard tranny-temp gauge and a trans-cooler with a fan up front. But I also have a Tildon auxiliary pump on a switch. This pumps the pan fluid through another big cooler on a fan under the back. This comes in handy after a blast on the highway or at the track to cool things down in a hurry.

If you miss overdrive on a car you only drive 1000 miles a year...........well, you may have way too much money and you should send me some.

I wish I had to much money.... But I understand what you're saying and you make a good point. I'm not totally against using a 400, for the thought has crossed my mind once or twice in the past. I agree 100% that it would make things very easy and cheaper, too, and most of all durable. Mostly what I've read and some of what I've been told is the 400 is a great piece, but there seems to be a consensus about the dangers (heat) with driving them on the street and that's predominately why I've shied away from it in the past. There's some people who were/are very adamant about not being able to drive a 400 on the street at all, while others have said be careful. I wish there where more people like yourself who in the past would have explained that better. Especially to someone like myself where the car is strictly a hobby and won't be driven that much at all. In fact, some people who know me well, say I'll probably never drive it. Now, that clearly won't be the case, but I will say by the time the pot holes get filled around here it's already late April/early May and I probably wouldn't drive it past October, so it won't be driven much just do to the climate. Even during the nice weather (except for the rain) it wouldn't be driven much, largely because I spend much of my time in front of a computer or reading computer books. That's why it won't be driven much. Also, when you say "long distances," how long are YOUR long distances?

 

[chris kirk]

I would have loved to have. PTC at the time I had that car with the 80e. Converter was a major drawback at the time... do yourself a favor and at least buy a converter from dusty if you do this.

Oh, I would, he's the best.... Seems like Dusty's name is mentioned in just about every converter/trans thread here. Nick Micale had first recommended him to me. I spoke to him about a year and a half ago about a converter. Thought I would have finished this by now....

 

[dank GN]

I went with the 400 . It is a ATI built reverse manual with a trans brake . I drive my car a lot and actually like shifting and really like that it's going to be pretty hard to break it as it was behind a stage 2 8sec car in its past life .

 

[Eticket]

Dusty isn't the only guy out there, but you get what you pay for....in the same light, Lonnie will buy back any trans that you buy from him any put it towards a replacement you like. A lot of this depends on how hard you drive your car. Guys don't take into account their street driving habits too....which in many cases are hundreds of 1/8 mile passes Over the course of a year.

 

[NY Twin Turbo]

I wish I had to much money.... But I understand what you're saying and you make a good point. I'm not totally against using a 400, for the thought has crossed my mind once or twice in the past. I agree 100% that it would make things very easy and cheaper, too, and most of all durable. Mostly what I've read and some of what I've been told is the 400 is a great piece, but there seems to be a consensus about the dangers (heat) with driving them on the street and that's predominately why I've shied away from it in the past. There's some people who were/are very adamant about not being able to drive a 400 on the street at all, while others have said be careful. I wish there where more people like yourself who in the past would have explained that better. Especially to someone like myself where the car is strictly a hobby and won't be driven that much at all. In fact, some people who know me well, say I'll probably never drive it. Now, that clearly won't be the case, but I will say by the time the pot holes get filled around here it's already late April/early May and I probably wouldn't drive it past October, so it won't be driven much just do to the climate. Even during the nice weather (except for the rain) it wouldn't be driven much, largely because I spend much of my time in front of a computer or reading computer books. That's why it won't be driven much. Also, when you say "long distances," how long are YOUR long distances?

I may drive it about 100-200 miles depending on that weekend's trip. For example, Cotton's Performance is about 120 miles from me and I drive it there. Lebanon Dragway is about 150 miles and I drive it there also. But most of the time it's more about the amount of time I drive it. Sometimes, when the weather is nice, I like to drive it nearly all day!

I thought I would hate shifting it. I probably would if it weren't for the B&M Ratchet Shifter. I don't hate it. I actually love it. And I got the shifter to work perfectly in the console. (see picture below)

Heat does not build much on steady cruising. But it does build quickly under load. When that happens I turn on the fan up front. And then I turn on the Tildon pump. This helps by circulating the fluid from the pan to another cooler out back. Sounds complicated, but it's not. Just the flip of a switch. A few minutes later and the fluid is at 170 degrees again.

Oh, and the pot-holes............

 

[Pronto]

Nice install. Do you have any pictures of the way it was installed? If so could you start a new thread with a how to so not to mess up this thread?