A New Drag Anti Lag System

[Alky V6]

If a TSM/TSO guy threw a 300 shot on their car we'd probably see a crash soon after when all the parts exited through the oil pan. I'd like to see a 2000hp V6 but it wouldn't last long If used for launch only, the only difference would be they could leave from an idle vs having to build boost. If they went any faster it would not be a huge change. They are already seeing 60's well into the 1.2's on stock suspension.

Don has put together a combo that runs well. I'm just wondering why the stipulation is that both cars have to leave from an idle.......it proves nothing that wasn't discovered in the 80's or even earlier. I remember a twin turbo V8 car back in the late 80's at my local track. It wouldn't come on boost until 300 feet so he sprayed it until the boost came in. Don has built a combo that uses a very large turbo and methanol, both of which keep backpressure much lower than possible for a "class" racer. This lower backpressure will increase power greatly over a similiar sized engine on gas with your normal 2x backpressure. Combos such as Don's need nitrous to leave well. It's the best of both worlds which is why it's illegal in class racing. Nitrous guys need a chance to win

The type of technology I'm bringing has not been around for decades. How many people do you know that successfully use nitrous injection with methanol on a large scale? You're making it out that I have some huge advantage here after all these years of telling me how I'm doing it wrong. I don't get it?

I'm still in the discovery stage of something that has never been seen before. Is it an advantage? I'm really not sure yet. But, I think a comparison against state of the art old school would be very interesting, myself.

 

[Dusty Bradford]

But then,... isn't there also a bit of mystery in building an efficient combo with the use of nitrous in mind? And how do the two different schools of thought compare?

It may be a mystery for some. The reason you don't see alot of info out there about is because it's illegal in about every class out there. It's not common because 99% of the people out there build a car for class racing. They want to race a class and see how they stack up against others when you have to use the same set of rules.

Particularly nitrous with methanol? Something no one has done before on a large scale with much success. It should be simple to take down such a pioneer of crazy thought. :tongue:[/QUOTE]

I don't know about that. I'd call 3rd in points in the ADRL 10.5 class pretty successful. He finished 3rd in points behind a 500ci screw blown alky hemi and an alky equipped 585ci Chevy with a 114mm. His weapon.....a 200ci Toyota 6 cylinder with a single 94mm........on M5 methanol and using nitrous.

1 Chuck Ulsch 541
2 Spiro Pappas 490
3 Gary White 339

 

[Alky V6]

I don't know about that. I'd call 3rd in points in the ADRL 10.5 class pretty successful. He finished 3rd in points behind a 500ci screw blown alky hemi and an alky equipped 585ci Chevy with a 114mm. His weapon.....a 200ci Toyota 6 cylinder with a single 94mm........on M5 methanol and using nitrous.

1 Chuck Ulsch 541
2 Spiro Pappas 490
3 Gary White 339

So there you go. Other pioneers that are leading the way.
Now that someone has finally set a respectable example, maybe now you're starting to realize that I'm not so crazy after all these years? Is that what you're trying to say to me?

Please, please. Get up off your knees. You don't need to bow to me.

 

[Dusty Bradford]

The type of technology I'm bringing has not been around for decades. How many people do you know that successfully use nitrous injection with methanol on a large scale? You're making it out that I have some huge advantage here after all these years of telling me how I'm doing it wrong. I don't get it?

I'm still in the discovery stage of something that has never been seen before. Is it an advantage? I'm really not sure yet. But, I think a comparison against state of the art old school would be very interesting, myself.

So this isn't about using nitrous with a turbo.........it's about using nitrous with methanol and a turbo. OK. I can understand that as it has not been around for a long time. It's been done by several but since most classes outlaw it.....you don't see it.

My original question was........ Why do you want to race a TSO type car from an idle? What does this race prove? I was looking for this question to be answered.

You have no advantage over a TSO car until you talk of leaving from an idle. A nitrous equipped methanol burning, over-turbo'd engine does have an advantage. The equalizer here is your small engine with old style heads offsets the gains of the rest of the system. Implement this system on a large engine like you see in ADRL where there are no engine rules and hp potential is over 4000hp. There are numerous BBC's with twins on methanol doing the same thing you are doing here. They just don't require nitrous because they have enough ci to spool the turbo's. They can easily overpower the chassis so they aren't much faster than the little Toyota. You can only apply so much power to a 10.5 tire.

I never said you were doing anything wrong. I often wondered why you were doing what you were doing so if it came across as saying your doing it wrong......that's not what I meant. I thought you should have used a smaller turbo and the proper converter. I was going by your et goals which would be easily accomplished with a much smaller turbo that would also eliminate the need for all the extra nitrous and the quick spool valve. You know......keep it simple while still reaching your et goal. I'm all about the desired et for the least headache and $$$. I thought you were as well.

 

[Alky V6]

So this isn't about using nitrous with a turbo.........it's about using nitrous with methanol and a turbo. OK. I can understand that as it has not been around for a long time. It's been done by several but since most classes outlaw it.....you don't see it.

My original question was........ Why do you want to race a TSO type car from an idle? What does this race prove? I was looking for this question to be answered.

You have no advantage over a TSO car until you talk of leaving from an idle. A nitrous equipped methanol burning, over-turbo'd engine does have an advantage. The equalizer here is your small engine with old style heads offsets the gains of the rest of the system. Implement this system on a large engine like you see in ADRL where there are no engine rules and hp potential is over 4000hp. There are numerous BBC's with twins on methanol doing the same thing you are doing here. They just don't require nitrous because they have enough ci to spool the turbo's. They can easily overpower the chassis so they aren't much faster than the little Toyota. You can only apply so much power to a 10.5 tire.

I never said you were doing anything wrong. I often wondered why you were doing what you were doing so if it came across as saying your doing it wrong......that's not what I meant. I thought you should have used a smaller turbo and the proper converter. I was going by your et goals which would be easily accomplished with a much smaller turbo that would also eliminate the need for all the extra nitrous and the quick spool valve. You know......keep it simple while still reaching your et goal. I'm all about the desired et for the least headache and $$$. I thought you were as well.

The answer to your question won't be answered until after the contest is finished. I don't have an answer for you now. I may not even have an answer after. I have no clue what the outcome will be. That's why I thought it would be interesting to have a comparison. Just another one of my crazy tests is all it is.

Dusty. I'm not sure why you thought that of me. If you've followed any indepth description I've made of myself in any thread, you would know different.

 

[Dusty Bradford]

So there you go. Other pioneers that are leading the way.
Now that someone has finally set a respectable example, maybe now you're starting to realize that I'm not so crazy after all these years? Is that what you're trying to say to me?

Please, please. Get up off your knees. You don't need to bow to me.

HAHA. The only reason I thought you were crazy was because you wanted to use a 91mm on methanol to run 8's when you can do that with a new school 76mm without all the headache.

I like being different as well. If not I would have put my motor in a Mustang and went faster like everyone else. Where you and I are different is that I do truely like to keep it simple. You call it old school.......I call it a well thought out combo. Et for the least $$$ spent without all the headache.

 

[Alky V6]

This must be what it's like to set up rules for a new class of drag racing. You're always going to have someone questioning and complaining about 'the rules'. :frown: :biggrin:

 

[Alky V6]

HAHA. The only reason I thought you were crazy was because you wanted to use a 91mm on methanol to run 8's when you can do that with a new school 76mm without all the headache.

I like being different as well. If not I would have put my motor in a Mustang and went faster like everyone else. Where you and I are different is that I do truely like to keep it simple. You call it old school.......I call it a well thought out combo. Et for the least $$$ spent without all the headache.

I knew you'd like that. :biggrin:

I don't know. I think that 4th place finish that you brought up by that small engine was pretty impressive, myself.

 

[Dusty Bradford]

The answer to your question won't be answered until after the contest is finished. I don't have an answer for you now. I may not even have an answer after. I have no clue what the outcome will be. That's why I thought it would be interesting to have a comparison. Just another one of my crazy tests is all it is.

Dusty. I'm not sure why you thought that of me. If you've followed any indepth description I've made of myself in any thread, you would know different.

I'm not asking if you think you'll win.

Why do you want to race a TSO car with the stipulation that he has to leave from an idle? What does this prove that everyone in the turbo world doesn't know?


Prior to a few days ago I had no idea how bad those old M&A heads supposedly flow. If they are truely as bad as you stated (210cfm at .700)than I can understand you wanting to get backpressure as low as possible. I figured they worked well enough to compare to a GN1 which when coupled with a GT42-76 and methanol with the right converter would meet your e.t goal without the nitrous and extra work. Now that you have put that info out there I can see where you need the advantage of crossover. Without it....you aren't going 8's.

 

[Dusty Bradford]

This must be what it's like to set up rules for a new class of drag racing. You're always going to have someone questioning and complaining about 'the rules'. :frown: :biggrin:

The problem with the rules is trying to keep a level playing field between FI cars and n2o cars. If the turbo cars were allowed unlimited turbo options coupled with a 2nd power adder you'd see alot more of the tech that you are using. But then we'd all gain 200hp and the nitrous cars would fall even further back. This is why you don't see it in many places besides ADRL because they have no engine rules.

 

[Alky V6]

HAHA. The only reason I thought you were crazy was because you wanted to use a 91mm on methanol to run 8's when you can do that with a new school 76mm without all the headache.

I like being different as well. If not I would have put my motor in a Mustang and went faster like everyone else. Where you and I are different is that I do truely like to keep it simple. You call it old school.......I call it a well thought out combo. Et for the least $$$ spent without all the headache.

Maybe old school was the wrong term. Maybe I should have said, self imposed restriction to conform to the majority. Or, the more marketable configuration.
By far, there are more people that simply prefer to go respectably fast, as cheap as possible. That will never change, and there's nothing wrong with that. Different strokes for different folks.

On the other hand, there will be those that much prefer to push the envelope of their skill, knowledge and ingenuity. If the path means having to learn new skills or research for new knowledge, that just means more fun.

 

[HighPSI]

On the other hand, there will be those that much prefer to push the envelope of their skill, knowledge and ingenuity. If the path means having to learn new skills or research for new knowledge, that just means more fun.

Just because I am using a self imposed restriction to conform to the majority, or the more marketable configuration doesn't mean that I am not trying to push the envelope of my skill, knowledge and ingenuity. I just prefer to learn new skills or research for new knowledge in a more useful and productive manor.

I want to say again that I applaud you for doing things your way and encourage you to continue. I may not agree that this is a major advancement in anti lag technology. I am interested to see how your combination works AFTER you let go of the trans-brake.

 

[Alky V6]

Just because I am using a self imposed restriction to conform to the majority, or the more marketable configuration doesn't mean that I am not trying to push the envelope of my skill, knowledge and ingenuity. I just prefer to learn new skills or research for new knowledge in a more useful and productive manor.

And I don't hold that against you at all. :biggrin: Friends 'till the end.

 

[Alky V6]

I'm not asking if you think you'll win.

Why do you want to race a TSO car with the stipulation that he has to leave from an idle? What does this prove that everyone in the turbo world doesn't know?

Maybe the question should really be, why does everyone want to compare my project to a class racer?

By the way, I didn't start the comparison.

 

[kingots2004]

LOL You're going to get me in trouble here, aren't you. :biggrin:

no sir im not. im just on your side on this one. i think you make some neat stuff and i feel like you just do it for yourself and no one else. ive seen some videos of your car running really well and im no class racer. 154 mph is the same whether you do it with a class or outlaw combo. i feel like you can give a good run to some of these guys and on an 1/8 mile track it would be alot closer than they think if you have a good run. plus on one side with your combo and some better heads who knows how fast you could go? and your current combo with a smaller turbo or a smaller shot of juice (say leave on a hundred shot) would be a street racing killer!!!!!

 

[Alky V6]

no sir im not. im just on your side on this one. i think you make some neat stuff and i feel like you just do it for yourself and no one else. ive seen some videos of your car running really well and im no class racer. 154 mph is the same whether you do it with a class or outlaw combo. i feel like you can give a good run to some of these guys and on an 1/8 mile track it would be alot closer than they think if you have a good run. plus on one side with your combo and some better heads who knows how fast you could go? and your current combo with a smaller turbo or a smaller shot of juice (say leave on a hundred shot) would be a street racing killer!!!!!

Thanks for the support. There are few people that offer it on this board.

Actually, I think the tuneup that is at the tail end of the Discovery video would do very well on the street. That was in front of the shop on bare concrete. I know it doesn't show the whole pull through first gear, but the car never lost traction.

 

[S2V6RACER]

Now that's the spirit!
I agree. Simply from a technical point of view, I think it would be very interesting.

Funny thing is most guys have no idea how little I am loading the motor on Dusty's PTC converter at the line to build boost. I am more concerned about what my car might do when the power comes on a little later in the run....

 

[baadgn]

Funny thing is most guys have no idea how little I am loading the motor on Dusty's PTC converter at the line to build boost. I am more concerned about what my car might do when the power comes on a little later in the run....

Oh trust me I know how well your car comes up on the pipe. not bad for a class car

 

[Dusty Bradford]

Maybe the question should really be, why does everyone want to compare my project to a class racer?

By the way, I didn't start the comparison.

I was going by what you posted. I quoted it below for reference. I was just wondering why you'd find this interesting and what it would prove?

Maybe we could do a match race. Pro light tree with the cars starting the pass from an idle. That would be interesting, wouldn't it?

 

[kingots2004]

Thanks for the support. There are few people that offer it on this board.

Actually, I think the tuneup that is at the tail end of the Discovery video would do very well on the street. That was in front of the shop on bare concrete. I know it doesn't show the whole pull through first gear, but the car never lost traction.

yeah i noticed that it left the line pretty good. if it didnt break traction when it got on out then yeah it would be tough on the street. maybe thats the race that should be run. a little street comp that way there is no issue of if the other car leaves at an idle. they cant cause that big flash of the converter would be hard on the tires. yup don thats the race id like to see. im a street guy anyway sure 7s are impressive but a couple cars gettin down on a deserted road is where my hearts at. ive seen many a low 9 car get took down by slower cars when the fast cars grow a pair and venture out