Alcohol/Water Injection Basics

[red94tt]

Hey guys, I am new to the idea of alky injection. Please enlighten me about it! I have been doing some research around the web and finally decided to ask all of you because I know turbo buicks use it a lot and have been successful with it.

What are some of the likes and dislikes you have come across? Thanks for any info you can give me, as I am having a hard time finding any Supra owners that have expiremented with this.

 

[BLACK6PACK]

I love it. No downsides so far. I was able to run the exact same setup on 93 octane and alky as I was with C116.

 

[Steve Hill]

First of all, let me say you should do thorough research, and have the proper data tools b4 doing a system.
Downsides? yes, a big one. If your system becomes inoperative or partially disabled, for _whatever_ reason, and you go wot, you're asking for trouble.
I have encountered this exact scenario on a few occasions. I have wisely wired an audible knock detector, have not defeated the knock sensor in any way, and if I hear the audible sensor go off I immediately back off.
The knock detector, BTW, is from Caspers and squawks loud if knock counts become aggressive.

 

[red94tt]

Are you guys running your own kits? I was looking at the one from SMC. I know that one is made for turbo buicks specifically, wonder how hard it would be to make it fit on my car. Also, on this kit, where does the actual injection of the alky take place? It looks like you can control the point (at a certain boost level) that the system comes on, correct?

Still just wondering if it will be beneficial to my application. Here is what I get so far for the advantages: knock suppression and raised octane level. Along with this comes lower temperatures and a steam cleaning effect on your engine.

On my setup I am currently running around 18-20# of boost via an electronic boost controller and I am running pig rich. I'm not looking to go too much higher than that so would a system like this be worth it? What are the gains in HP you guys see on the average?

Heh, sorry for all the questions, as this is totally new to me. It seems like no one else knows about this stuff but you guys, and I have always had respect for your cars

 

[Steve Hill]

....the Supra's are awesome cars in their own right. Sorta like the turbo Buicks. i.e., underrated and easily modded.

quote "Are you guys running your own kits? "
I developed and defined my own system about 4.5 years ago.

quote "will be beneficial to my application"
absolutely, if done properly.

quote "and I am running pig rich"
then figure it out b4 doing the w-a thing. Don't need more things to complicate your fueling. Understand your engine management and get that under control first.

quote "What are the gains in HP "
hard to say. I've heard it stated something like 12 hp for each lb boost. Probably not a bad guess.

 

[BLACK6PACK]

The SMC kit is universal. It has nothing to do with the computer or anything that would make it buick specific. Drill a hole in the pipe before the throttlebody and mount the nozzle, run the supplied braided hose to the tank. Run wires from the tank to the inside of car. Hook wires up to control box provided. Hook up positive and negative wires to fuse box. Tap into boost line (boost gage is easiest) and you are done. Takes 1-1.5 hours to install. There is a pump speed dial (lets you vary the amout of alky being injected), a turn on dial (reason for tapping into boost line) that lets you adjust the turn on point. It has a Power light, Activated light and a low alky light. It was the easiest and most bang for the buck mod I have done!!!

The only thing I had to buy was JB weld. This is used to seal up around the injection nozzle, but is only a suggested step and not manditory.

 

[red94tt]

Great thanks for the info Steve, for the rich A/F problem I plan on getting an electronic AF controller and spend some time on the dyno this winter, to take care of that problem.

BLACK6PACK: Wow so the SMC isn't buick specific, thats good news, one less complicated thing to deal with Best bang for the buck? Sounds good to me

 

[WFO]

one thing that you need to realize is that the main power advantage with water/alcohol is being able to run higher boost and more timing.in essence you can tune your car similar to how you would on race gas.

adding alky and not changing anything may give you some increase in power by eliminating knock retard.but the real gains come when you increase boost and/or timing beyond normal pump gas levels.

the only reason i'm telling you this is because i know how things sometimes get done in the supra world.ever hear about those guys that run lots of boost on pump gas, take their car to the dyno and get a 75-100 hp increase by doing nothing more than putting in race gas?the reason for the power increase is because the computer is no longer backing timing out because the car is knocking it's guts out.lucky for supra owners they are blessed with a bulletproof longblock that can take that kind of abuse.unfortunately this also fosters ignorance that knock is even occurring,or that it is a concern.alcohol gives you the potential to run at those high boost/power levels without damaging anything.

i've actually had supra guys tell me "it's not knocking,i don't hear anything" .

not knocking supra guys either,my roommate has one(mk3 turbo)and so does my friend derek(anarkey).just callin it how i've seen it.

and i agree with your choice of the smc kit,i did most of the install of mine this afternoon.it is a really nice kit.

later,sean

 

[red94tt]

Welll, that is exactly what I was just thinking about. If I were to stay at the same boost level I am at right now, then I probably wouldn't see too much of an increase in HP.

Yes, a lot of supra guys deny that detonation is taking place at these levels, but like you said, I'm sure it exists.

So this would maybe not give me huge increases in HP but rather give me added insurance, correct?

 

[WFO]

well yeah,but hell man if it's there use it.

i know that i will be tuning my car to run as much boost as safely possible.my turbo's "sweet spot" is supposed to be 25-26 psi.that's what i'm shooting for .

it sounds like you've got a pretty good game plan already.fiddle with your air/fuel ratio til it's where you want it.then start mixing in the alky and turning up the boost.there's really no reason why you can't run 22-24 psi on pump gas with it.some have gone higher,some lower,but there's definitely a lot of power to be had.

later,sean

 

[Mikel]

If you are still on the stock twins (which I assume you are by the RWHP numbers), alky probably won't do you MUCH good. It will show a little improvement, but nothing like what you would see if you were running, say, a single T04R or a single T66.

 

[sonik]

red94tt

If you are at bpu levels then its time you get a vpc or some other device so you can lean out your af..bpu cars run rich. I plan on getting the alky injection as well but have a few questions. Is there any way I can use an aluminum reservoir of some sort? Next, from the reservoir goes the pump, then from the pump to the solenoid and from there to the nozzle. Now if I wanted this to kick in around 16psi I would just get a boost activated switch and tap into my boost gauge and then hook the switch to the solenoid correct..what are the advantages and disadvantages to methanol...I can get this real cheap so this is what I want to use. Do you have to add oil to it..if so how much.
Thanks

 

[BLACK6PACK]

Sonik,
The good thing about the SMC alky kit is that he has done all the running around for you. You can put your own kit together for around $150, but you have to chase down all the parts, hope they work and be your own test mule. Plus, the smc kit has several bells and whistles that make tuning a snap. There is a test button (hit the button if engine bogs its working), there is a pump speed dial (lets you adjust the amount of alky injected from inside the car instead of changing NOS jets) and a pump turn on dial (taps into boost line and lets you adjust turn on point from inside car). It also has an ON light, an ACTIVATED light, and a LOW ALCOHOL warning light. The only problem with methanol is whether the pump can withstand its corrosive nature. I'm not sure that Steve warrents the methanol at this time. Some type of lubricant is advised. If you are running strait alky then an oil based additive is OK - WD 40, Mistry Oil, etc. If you are running alky/water you have to use some RMI radiator treatment stuff.

 

[jojo]

You supra guys are funny i work with a guy that has a 89 supra, i believe single turbo for that year. He keeps telling me what his car will do, if he had this, and if he had that. All the while hes getting about 6psi and the front fan is falling off and his power steering is gone and he cant start it sometimes, and i think now he just told me its falling apart. Hes a funny guy, actually a young kid 20 i think, but i like him. Me being the older wiser guy, just kind of humor him even though he thinks my 87gn sucks. After i took him for a ride, different attitude adjustment Then he told me, WOW or OH **** or something like that But he had to keep his cool by saying: so was that it?? even though he was ****ting his pants when i took him for a ride And that was my gn doing about 13.6 or so 16psi of boost

jojo

 

[darkfa8]

chip stuff

there was a thread recently about whether or not more timing or more boost would make more power...

it was moreorless concluded that more boost provides the greater potential at more power than increasing chip timing...

now..adding the characteristics of alky...when it comes to chip design what do you do? Shoot for more boost, less timing and max out your turbo, max out timing and run less boost, or trying bring timing and boost up as high as possible until there is a "happy median"?

 

[tyndago]

I put an SMC kit on a GT-R... allowed us to increase the boost from 19 psi to 26 psi on pump gas.


I think even at the 18-20 psi level it also has the benefit of cooling the intake charge.... ever notice how the car seems to run a little stronger when its cold ? They say 10 deg cooler = 1% power. Even if it doesnt cooler is better and it does help to cool and condense the air.

I would say for the $350 its well worth it...

 

[Wht87T]

I was supposed to get a T63E but harry @ PTE ran out of center sections. Looks like I might be getting a TE45 Qtrim and I wanna take full control of this turbo on the street. I 've come to the conclusion that Alky is the way to go. Just a few questions.
1. Where can I get the alky from???
2. I understand i have to drill a hole into the up-pipe, but what do I seal the hole with, and where do I get the sealer from?
3. How long does a full bottle of Alky usually last???
Thx in advance. I really excited about running alky on the street!!!

 

[DMan]

Originally posted by Wht87T
1. Where can I get the alky from???
2. I understand i have to drill a hole into the up-pipe, but what do I seal the hole with, and where do I get the sealer from?
3. How long does a full bottle of Alky usually last???
Thx in advance. I really excited about running alky on the street!!!

Denatured is available at most hardware stores/home depot

With Aquamist nozzles, all you do is drill and tap the up pipe. No sealer required.

I have 2.5 gallons of alky in the trunk and I flow about .4 gallons per minute when all nozzles are on. Hence, I carry about ~ 6 minutes worth of alky system operation (or about 30 1/4 mile passes).

 

[boostm3]

I have wisely wired an audible knock detector

Any of you guys know where we can buy, or how to make, one of these?

 

[AnArKey]

Originally posted by jojo
You supra guys are funny:

Some of us, yes. Me, I'm serious. So far 22psi on my T78 94 Supra, with methanol injection. Plan to be at 25-26psi and 600RWHP+ within a week.

Yeah, most of Supra owners don't know too much, compared to the Turbo Buick world. I honestly miss the attitude of Buick guys, since I sold my Buick and got the Supra.

But I LOOOOOOVE the car.