Alky injection.

[Alky V6]

Wow. Nice post, Pablo.

 

[turbolou]

Reply

Palo, I admire your common sense & your knowledge of the facts. This I consider a valuable piece of advice that the readers of this thread should heed & appreciate. I couldn't of said it any better.

 

[Gary Wells]

Pablo:
That is just one heck of a lot of information that I was not aware of. I can see that you have really spent some time on that. Even after becoming aware of all that info, though, I would & will still spend the extra $150 or whatever in support of Alkycontrol. TB.com supporting supplier, owning & supporting a website for customer feedback & questions, great customer support, quality manufacturing, excellent kitting & packaging all stand pretty tall in my book. Some of those other kits are good only because they have to compete against Julio. Just my $.02 worth, and probably not worth that much after taxes, definitely thanks for the info though.

 

[Razor]

All this said, I still run his kit. Why? I have come up with work arounds for most of the short comings. The ones I haven't solved, I have "fixed" by adjusting my driving habits. Ultimately the only major issue I have left is the de-priming problem. I have "fixed" this by recognizing the conditions that have likely de-primed my system. This is still a major major problem. Beyond that, leaky pumps (not exactly razors fault since shurflo makes these pumps) and flickering low alky light when not low are my only problems.
Like I said before, I've worked around the rest with engine management, but I believe there are better alky kit options that offer much better tunability.

Pablo, a simple check valve on the nozzle may solve the depriming issue your having. Coupled with a change in material of the pumps check valve. Insulating the pressure hose will also help with the issue. As what may be happening is your boiling the alcohol in the lines.

I made a delay for the low level senders whereas it only activates after the sensor goes down for an extended time.. 5 seconds. I announced it on the forums.. everyone at the time said they liked the blinking as it gave an indication how much they had left. This is one of those I dont see a fix for.

Glad you have my system, if you have any issue's with its operation, please contact me and I will do whatever it takes to make it rite for you.

As far as your tunability statement. It is my belief your off on this. Due to mechanical limitation of any kit produced by anyone on the planet. Distance of nozzle from port vs mechanical time to pressurize.

Your computer is your limitation. 25 year old computers have their limitation, doesnt matter what is piggy backed onto it. Newer technology($$$) has the ability to correct any air fuel shortcomings. This I have proof of. An XFI, BS3, GenVII, Motec, AEM, etc.. pics up the ball and runs with it.

As far as a 11-12 second street car.. a chip on a 25 year old computer works really well. Splitting atoms trying to get higher resolution.. then the limitation start showing up. Alky or not. C16 or not. I have seen plenty of cars running the very best of fuel, the very best computers, the best tuners.. blow their gaskets out. Anyone around these cars long enough watching them run will see that. The faster the car is.. the higher likelyhood of an issue sooner than latter.

Hope this helps.

 

[meanchicken]

Thanks, Julio, for jumping in.

Thanks also for your off board communication with me. I appreciate it.
You have earned another customer and you'll be hearing from me this week.
:biggrin:
If priming loss was to become an issue for me, where in line would you suggest that check valve be placed?

Thanks again,
Tim

 

[JSTTA]

There's a lot of hype surrounding razor's kit but I dont think it's any better than any of the major kits out there. The only benefit to his kit is that he provides instructions for a somewhat stealth install specifically for a turbo Buick. Actually if you want to just jump on the bandwagon or not engage much thought into the alky process, keep it simple, its probably the kit for you.

I think I'm probably more familiar with how his kit works, and how alky injection works in general than most. I have had his kit apart I have bench tested it.. I know how it works. it does a job but I would hardly call it over engineered or even say that it does its job very well. In fact it is well well well behind what the other alky systems are capable of in terms of technology. Razor just has a strangle hold on this forum and though I harbor no ill will toward him or his products, I think that he is simply resting on his laurels. I would be the first one to commend him if he stepped things up a few notches.

Any thread that comes up about alky kits is the same, little technological info and a lot of bandwagon.

When you absolutely depend on your alcohol kit to work you start to notice the shortcomings, and I have personally had a kit from him that worked intermittently. If I wasn't keenly observant as to the warning signs I might have driven over my crank. He was very gracious and provided me with a new kit but it was quite obvious that his stuff was being left behind and that there were issues that have not been discussed.

Perhaps the absolute most major issue is the evaporation or siphoning of primed alky lines on a highway driven vehicle. Here in California this is a major problem since we tend to cruise on a freeways for extended periods of time. Perhaps solenoids could alleviate this problem, maybe insulating the lines may help. As for now after some time on a free way I have to prime my alcohol system. I have had several pumps and have disassembled them and they are not internally leaking. If it were a pump issue the system would lose its prime over night which it does not do.

Externally is another story. Every pump has eventually leaked and my methanol is from sealed 5 gallon drums from well known fuel suppliers (so I don't think contamination is a major issue) . I have come up with work arounds to seal my pumps at least temporarily (though my fixes have held so far)

As far as tuning goes, I would hardly call the razor kit the racers choice considering the alternatives, you have only one input with the razor kit, boost. This can make transitional tuning very difficult if you don't have an efi system that furnishes you with good work arounds.
There are other kits out there that use more than one input and are scalable. For example, from a roll, full throttle kick down, you will come up on boost very fast and a transitional lean condition is likely to occur since the pump will only react after it has seen boost and has overcome internal inertia, started pumping, and has moved a column of fluid out of your alcohol nozzles, and that alcohol arrives at your cylinders.
By then, its too late, you probably already hit 25 psi at your map sensor, and THEN the alcohol pump reacts. Not good. If for example you had an rpm input you could conceivably anticipate these types of situations and have alcohol flowing before boost hits your map sensor. That's just one example.
I actually attempted a work around with a WOT microswitch that was more or less a brute force fix that ended up making me to rich on a standard launch.....

Pablo, no bandwagon here, I have one of Razors original kits, I repalced the pump, and Julio sent me the upgrade pac(did not install). I still use the old style with no issues running faster times than this gentleman is looking to run. Customer support and knowledge of the Buick turbo V6 is bar none. I wish all products i buy would have customer service like this. This is worth the extra money to me. It is not rocket science, just adding something to suppress knock at a higher boost.

 

[meanchicken]

Pablo, no bandwagon here, I have one of Razors original kits, I repalced the pump, and Julio sent me the upgrade pac(did not install). I still use the old style with no issues running faster times than this gentleman is looking to run. Customer support and knowledge of the Buick turbo V6 is bar none. I wish all products i buy would have customer service like this. This is worth the extra money to me. It is not rocket science, just adding something to suppress knock at a higher boost.

I hear you loud and clear.
But you've never met me....I have a knack for turning things that are not rocket science into rocket surgery...
....even tail pipe removal...

 

[meanchicken]

If priming loss was to become an issue for me, where in line would you suggest that check valve be placed?

What?
Nobody from the southwestern crowd came back with a viagra joke?
You guys are off your game tonight....

 

[Alky V6]

I have a knack for turning things that are not rocket science into rocket surgery...
....even tail pipe removal...

Poor guy. You sound like someone I know.

 

[meanchicken]

Poor guy. You sound like someone I know.

Let me know if you need some help getting your GN ready for the next race!:biggrin:

 

[Gary Wells]

I don't think that you will regret your decision to go with Alkycontrol, Tim.
Definitely a nicer more professional looking set-up.

 

[Alky V6]

Let me know if you need some help getting your GN ready for the next race!:biggrin:

Thanks for the offer. Your welcome to stop by anytime. I'll let you know the next time I take it out.

 

[meanchicken]

Placed my order with Razor today.

Thanks for the offer. Your welcome to stop by anytime. I'll let you know the next time I take it out.

Wow...really?
Cool!
You're a brave man, Donny!
Uh....Before I actually touch your car...can I get you to sign a legal document that releases me of all liability for anything that happens after the moment I touch it?
You did notice how I kept my distance from it at Fontana and Bates, right?
There's a very good reason for that distance....

 

[Pablo]

Well it looks like you have made your decision. Frankly, knowing what I know, if i were in your shoes, I would not have made the same decision. It may however turn out to be the right one for you.

I have posted relevant information on a number of threads on the alky forum, but one thread that specifically addresses the concerns I have is this one: http://www.turbobuick.com/forums/al...40454-coolingmist-devil-s-own-h2o-meth-2.html

Just as an FYI, there are probably a dozen different manufacturers of alcohol injection kits. I'm not here to endorse any of them specifically since number one, im not on anyones payroll, and number two, I haven't used any of their kits.

What I can tell you, is that the degree of sophistication in a lot of these kits is much higher than the alky control kit. I can also tell you a lot of these kits are cheaper. But don't take my word for it, go look at them for yourself. They keep progressing, razors kit generally stays the same.

Multiple inputs really would help as I have explained in my above post. I'll explain further down below.

 

[Pablo]

Pablo, a simple check valve on the nozzle may solve the depriming issue your having. Coupled with a change in material of the pumps check valve. Insulating the pressure hose will also help with the issue. As what may be happening is your boiling the alcohol in the lines.

I made a delay for the low level senders whereas it only activates after the sensor goes down for an extended time.. 5 seconds. I announced it on the forums.. everyone at the time said they liked the blinking as it gave an indication how much they had left. This is one of those I dont see a fix for.

Glad you have my system, if you have any issue's with its operation, please contact me and I will do whatever it takes to make it rite for you.

As far as your tunability statement. It is my belief your off on this. Due to mechanical limitation of any kit produced by anyone on the planet. Distance of nozzle from port vs mechanical time to pressurize.

Your computer is your limitation. 25 year old computers have their limitation, doesnt matter what is piggy backed onto it. Newer technology($$$) has the ability to correct any air fuel shortcomings. This I have proof of. An XFI, BS3, GenVII, Motec, AEM, etc.. pics up the ball and runs with it.

As far as a 11-12 second street car.. a chip on a 25 year old computer works really well. Splitting atoms trying to get higher resolution.. then the limitation start showing up. Alky or not. C16 or not. I have seen plenty of cars running the very best of fuel, the very best computers, the best tuners.. blow their gaskets out. Anyone around these cars long enough watching them run will see that. The faster the car is.. the higher likelyhood of an issue sooner than latter.

Hope this helps.

Razor,

First off, Yes, a check valve (actually two) could possibly solve the depriming issue. That certainly is a possible solution to the depriming problem.

Secondly, methanol doesn't need to "boil" to disappear from your lines, it evaporates very easily because it has high vapor pressure when compared to water for instance. You'll see this if you leave a small amount of methanol out, it evaporates much more quickly than water. As temps increase (like underhood) the vapor pressure increases. Since the alcohol lines are open ended, the gaseous methanol never reaches dynamic equilibrium like it would in your methanol can and thus the alcohol "vanishes".

It's not an issue with the pump check valve. It doesn't leak. It's the simple fact that alcohol likes to evaporate, and it evaporates faster in warm environments. It will turn into a gas.
Couple this with a slight drop in pressure that must occur because of the venturi effect over the alcohol nozzle openings (which incidentally is how a carburetor works), you aren't doing much to encourage the alcohol to stay in those lines.

I think the thing that bothers me the most is that I had to discover these issues after the fact. Either check valves, solenoids, or insulation should be provided with a kit or a customer shouldn't be left to discover that these are potential necessities only after they have knocked the hell out of their engine.

I read the post about the low level sender delay. In my opinion, I think it's a problem that should be solved and if an owner wishes to not use the delay/filter, they should be given the option to turn it off. At 3/4 tank, I will constantly have a flickering low level light under boost. Not a big problem either way, but still annoying.

As far as your commentary on engine management... I wish you would have read my post more carefully. You state that "Your computer is your limitation" which is precisely the opposite of what I brought up. My engine management is the only thing that helped me overcome the the limitations of your kit. Not the other way around. The GEN II is quite useful. The main advantage of aftermarket ecm setups is that you get everything in a more convenient package for ease of use. When it comes down to it, the more sophisticated your engine management is, the more progressive alcohol control becomes obsolete since a non progressive system's problems can be overcome with better engine management. It might even be possible for a setup like mine to work with non progression quite well. Might be something to try in the future.

Mechanical limitations of alky kits are fixed yes, if we use the same configuration of a pump, misting nozzles, etc. But software limitations aren't fixed. There are software work arounds. I specifically pointed out that in my case, wide band tracking, allowed me to overcome the limitations of your kit. If I did not have it, I would most certainly prefer a kit that wasn't so limited.

A kit with more than one input will not fix the mechanical limitations, but it can seek to limit their effect on performance. This is to "predict" when alcohol will be needed as opposed to injecting alcohol after its already needed (when boost is sensed for example on a full throttle kick down from a roll). On cars like ours, if we hit 4500 rpm, theres not much of a prediction to be made, its more or less a fact that we will be under boost since transmission shift points are throttle input sensitive. The boost rise time is going to be very different for a downshift than if you came upon that rpm from a launch. Unfortunately, due to mechanical limitations, you have a fixed delay of response from the alcohol kit. That delay is many times longer than the amount of time you have available before knock manifests. So why not give the pump a head start using more predictive variables?

I see kits out there with scalable tps, map, rpm, EGT, etc inputs.... if you look at what an ecm is doing, its reading a lot of things to deliver fuel to your cylinders. An alky kit isn't much different in what it is trying to accomplish except that the level of sophistication and control isn't there, you are also trying to work around mechanical limitations in the current popular configuration.

I forsee a future where alcohol injection looks more like a 7th, 8th, or even 9th injector setup that is controlled by your engine management versus a standalone system. We are a long ways from that, but technology always marches on. Either improve or get left behind.

 

[Pablo]

one more thing, I'm not going to revive an old thread, but on the thread I linked Julio replied to a post of mine that I should clarify here in case you read it

One of the points I made is that with only one input, like boost, you have fixed alcohol fueling at a given boost level despite changing fuel requirements based upon rpm. His reply :

"How bout this, look at the VE table on your aftermarket computer and what the injectors are doing during WOT. You'll see they change very little. Meaning the fuel at 4k, 5k, 6k varies little. Probably less than 5 percent. Let alone, the alky system only provides 15% of that fueling.. so the other 85 comes from the fuel.. and control from vehicles ECM.

And when racing, when your dialed in your rpm's should only vary like 600 keeping the motor in its sweet spot making power. Loose converters will give less drop.

So a fixed amount of alky at a fixed amount of boost.. dial in the air fuel with your injectors. Easy. 9's are yours

Its like waxing your vehicle antenna thinking the car will go faster as the antenna creates less drag.

Prove me wrong in real life."

I don't know how I missed it, but, hes actually made a mistake in his analysis of how much total fuel flow an engine is consuming. In simple terms, VE changes refer to changes in injector pulsewidth (injector on time) If you theoretically had the same VE at 4000 rpm, and the same VE at 6000 rpm that means the injectors are going to be open for the same amount of time per cylinder induction stroke.
You aren't however using the same amount of fuel for a given amount of time. Actually you are going to be opening the injectors 2000 more times per minute at 6000 rpm than you would at 4000 rpm. You could still be flowing more fuel vs time even if the injector pulsewidth decreased (up to a point)

Alky flow referenced to boost is going to flow the same regardless of rpm even though a greater percentage of fuel is alky at lower rpms for the same level of boost. Its not firing per cylinder induction event like your injectors.

 

[Alky V6]

Placed my order with Razor today.




Wow...really?
Cool!
You're a brave man, Donny!
Uh....Before I actually touch your car...can I get you to sign a legal document that releases me of all liability for anything that happens after the moment I touch it?
You did notice how I kept my distance from it at Fontana and Bates, right?
There's a very good reason for that distance....

Hmmm. Maybe I should clarify.

Thanks for the offer... but I have it handled.

You're welcome to stop by anytime... to shoot the ****.

Sorry man. I didn't mean it to sound like I wanted to put you to work.

 

[Grumpy]

So a fixed amount of alky at a fixed amount of boost.. dial in the air fuel with your injectors. Easy. 9's are yours

Pablo sounds like you have all the answers... why don't YOU build kits and make all the $$$ ??? 9s easy ???? SHOW ME NO...NOT on paper or the woulda coulda shoulda's..

 

[Alky V6]

Pablo sounds like you have all the answers... why don't YOU build kits and make all the $$$ ??? 9s easy ???? SHOW ME NO...NOT on paper or the woulda coulda shoulda's..

Actually, I don't think Pablo stated that. It was presented as a quote from something Julio posted.

I do see Pablo's point of view. Use your head, do your own research on the different kits that are available and pick the one that fits your needs for the right price.

There does seem to be a lot of new alky kits out there these days. There's got to be some new and interesting features available these days.

 

[Grumpy]

Actually, I don't think Pablo stated that. It was presented as a quote from something Julio posted.

oh ok ... Ill go eat a "crow sandwich" if thats the case I can't see 9's being easy