All Kicker System?

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Eighty2Regal

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Ok right now I have fosgates that are rated at 15 watts rms and 30 peak i know kicker makes 3.5 resolution that are rated at 50 peak and that would work well since I have a 50 x 4 head unit . Now for the 4 x 10 pioneers i have. Do you think I should replace them with kicker 4 x 10's or get kicker 6 by 9's? thanks.
 
or are the infinity kappa 3.5 bettter? I want sound quality.
 
sound what?

What is your definition of "Sound Quality"?

Changing speakers will not help you.

Trying to send high wattage to small speakers will not help you.

Trying to squeeze a non-crossed over signal through small speakers will not help.

Top mounted, dash type full-range speakers do not, will not and won't ever produce good sound imaging or staging because of the negative effects inherant to aiming a sound source at a piece of glass - aka, the windsheild. The dispersion of the sound from the left and right side really screws up the imaging and staging. If you want a sub-par stereo system, then by all means, stick with dash speakers...if you want to step up to a pro-system, ditch them, learn about acoustics and design a system accordingly.

Visit carsound.com , termpro.com , elitecaraudio.com, audionutz.com and other reputable forums and resources to LEARN.

Also, trying listening to a good quality close-monitor stereo system for reference or a live band. Get familiar with how sound works.
 
I strongly disagree. If you have excellent speakers (like the Kappa's) and protect them (using some type of crossover to eliminate them from attempting to produce frequencies they are unable to) they can handle a whole lot of power. I have 2 channels of a old skool HiFonics Gemini (50 x4) running just the Kappa's and it gets EXTREMELY loud. Not to mention the imaging is excellent. The 6 1/2's in the kick panels are barely even heard.

A good set of components will be better but you can attain excellent sound and volume with good speakers correctly installed.
 
...

High quality speakers don't always make for good sound no matter where you put them.

Perception of what correct imaging/staging/definition and other facets of sound are based mainly on experience and personal taste.

Me, I'm a musician, I know what the "real thing" sounds like. I have my "tastes" for reproduction...just like I have a certain sound to my drumset, I like a thick, hard hitting, tight bass, a cracking snare, and bright, refined cymbals...with that, I listen to certain types of music that have those characteristics and I listen for accuracey in reproduction, then imaging..etc...

Like Audiowizard said, we each have our own backgrounds in what we perfer If it sounds good to you, don't screw with it.
 
Re: ...

Originally posted by darkfa8

Like Audiowizard said, we each have our own backgrounds in what we perfer If it sounds good to you, don't screw with it.

Thats the best advice that can be given. :)
 
In the 13 years I've been installing (early full time, now just for friends, etc...) it has been my experience that ANYWHERE you put speakers in a car it is a compromise. Nothing you can do can simulate you sitting in a room in your house with the speakers equally seperated aimed directly at you (with a beer in your hand). With that said, yes the dash locations have a weakness, the glass. But the components have them as well. With putting the midbass and tweeters way down by your feet do you honestly believe that the sound is not getting altered. Especially the drivers side with the steering wheel directly in the way. I know on mine, to see the drivers side speakers, I have to lean over just to see them so you know the sound is not directly hitting your ears. It is bouncing off your pants, steering wheel, under dash, etc. before it even gets to your ears. Upon trying both scenarios in the TTA I found what works best is a combination of the kick panel components and dash speakers. Both running full range with the dash speakers attenuated a little.
 
well im getting better with tweakin a stereo ok. I have it now that I can bury my head unit to full power without much distortion. I have faded to rear 7, bass 0 63 hz, treble 0 2k, eq low -3 mid 0 high 0, sla 0, loudness off. I am still looking into getting new front speakers however. My system is sounding good tho.
 
I would have to say that you should get a realy good set of speakers up front dont even mess with the rear speakers at all. The money you save from having to buy rear speaker you can spend up front. Just put a set of 5 1/4s or 6 1/2s up in the doors or kick panels or something. For your head unit I think it only puts out about 20 watts RMS maybe, not very powerfull. Guys IMO Kicker's and Infinity Kappa's are not all that I would rather have a set of JL's or MB Quart's, but it just depends on how much money ya want to spend too.
 
just some minor suggestions . . .

In the 13 years I've been installing (early full time, now just for friends, etc...) it has been my experience that ANYWHERE you put speakers in a car it is a compromise.

- Rather redundant. An automotive cabin will never equal the acoustical environment of a recording studio, an anechoic chamber or a Dolby 5.1/THX designed theatre layout. The name of the game is to "simulate" those environments as best as possible given the type of vehicle and the type of install.

- Until which time we can all afford to have the movie's orchestra, or the live band play for us live in our living rooms, there will always be compromise between what is real and what is a reproduction.

Nothing you can do can simulate you sitting in a room in your house with the speakers equally seperated aimed directly at you (with a beer in your hand).

- That beer can is what totally screws up the path lengths ;)

With that said, yes the dash locations have a weakness, the glass. But the components have them as well. With putting the midbass and tweeters way down by your feet do you honestly believe that the sound is not getting altered.

- Pathlengths are the primarly construction goal when designing a front stage. The mid-range drivers are what do most of the work setting up the "stage" height and width, followed by the tweeters (off-axis response varies depending on tweeter design), then the mid-bass and lastly sub-bass. Unless you build a custom dash, coated everything with fabric, sound absorption material and/or deadener you will always have reflections, and slight resonances not matter what you do.

- from termpro.com:
Here is what you do. Start with all your wires ran. Then just have your mids play. No subs or highs, just mids. The little secret is that if you can image with your mids you are on your way to an awesome sounding car. Play with the angles of the mids and use the 7 beat drum track on the iasca disc or the 3 spoken voices track. You are looking for defined images, definite left, center, and right.

Dont be afraid to flip the phase on either mid to see if that helps imaging. Once you have something that you like, secure the angle of the speaker somehow and now add the tweeter to the mix.

Play with the angles once again and get everything in line, mid imaging lines up with highs imaging.

I hope this helps, this is the technique I used and it paid off. Believe me!

jay jensen
2001 iasca world champion
2001 rookie of the year
roc_jj@yahoo.com

- The kick-panel area of the majority of vehicles out there provide the best pathlength ratio compared to ANY other area in the car sans building a custon dash. Measure for your self the distance between your ears and each respective upper-dash speaker location and then the kick panel locations. I will bet you that the kick-panel locations have a pathlength difference from left to right of less than 6". (I've measured it myself in both my Monte SS's and now my Regal)

Especially the drivers side with the steering wheel directly in the way. I know on mine, to see the drivers side speakers, I have to lean over just to see them so you know the sound is not directly hitting your ears. It is bouncing off your pants, steering wheel, under dash, etc. before it even gets to your ears.

- The steering wheel is hardly a proven inhibitor to the car's sound system. You ever see any competition vehicles without steering wheels? As for your clothing, off-axis response and good aiming/mounting helps address that ... in some competition vehicles they move the front seats back to make more room for the front staging and "clearer" pathlengths for the mid-range (check Tim Baille's Regal http://www.hzemall.com/).

- It doesn't matter if your eye balls "see" the speaker(s), your ears are what are important.

Upon trying both scenarios in the TTA I found what works best is a combination of the kick panel components and dash speakers. Both running full range with the dash speakers attenuated a little.

- Maybe you could contact Mike Lacher (Formula Firehawk #448 of 741, Future IASCA 1-600 Pro Street Competitor) and check out what he does for F-Bodies: http://www.djsexay.com/ By the way, I think he can also make nice and sturdy fiberglass repros of G-Body stock kick-panels for you to build your custom kick-pods on. I have to send him some pics of mine to make sure.

- I also highly, highly super incredably suggest and recommend reading the articles on Audionutz site :D . He goes into depth about how a SQ system is judged, how he sets his up and what to look for and how the acoustics of a vehicle effect car audio sound - excellent, professional reading. Goto either www.audionutz.com or directly to the install guides at: http://www.audionutz.com/guide.htm Oh, and look at the two installs he has featured ... nice ... to bad we can't hear/experience them over the web ;)

- Just a suggestion ;)
 
Dan,
If you and I were to ever be entered in a "debate contest", I could not stand a chance against you :D . You are loaded with too much info!!! (that is a good thing).

I can still ship you my R.T.I. manual and let you run copies of it, its about an inch thick. Let me know through my e-mail where you want me to ship it to so you can read it and make a copy. I am trusting you with this book!!! It as alot of sentimental value because Gary Biggs gave it to me :) .
 
Me

I get my info from places other people visit. As for my experience, it is primarily based in sound reinforcement and broadcast recording with being a muscian tacked onto that.

I have yet to really build a nutty car sound system. However, conceptually, acoustics is acoustics, just a matter of adjusting techniques for changes in venue/environment.

At current, I'm awaiting funds to finish building my own kick-pods, fiberglassing my trunk and designing a sub enclosure using Divinylcell HD foam core ... among other things.

I'm also working on getting my MECP First Class certificate ... I've studied the book back and forth, just need insight on notorized experience.

I read a lot, online, books, magazines and talking with people all over the place. I order catalogs from all kinds of places (electronics, DIYs, industrial products - plastics, supplies, laminates, adhesives..) gives me perspective on what materials are out there to make stuff.

Of particular interest, that I also have a super suggest rating for is Mike Abeita's tutorials on termpro.com. I applied for a job with him (have fingers crossed) because he is head instructor for a shop out in Phoenix, AZ and his teaching methods are exellent. He recently posted full fledged tut's on fiberglassing, plexi-glassin', center console design and kick-pod design. I'm anxious to build all this stuff... once I can get a job and afford the materials ;)

I love this guy, in a professional way ... he's a moderator over there at termpro and he does these incredible, info filled, picture filled tutorials. He reminds me of Bruce Toelle and his tact in regards to educating and sharing knowledge. In the end, skill is still the key requirment, but once you have the basics your imagination and $$ are the limit.

That's good I admit, but I also admit that its not the whole "deal". Experience in the bay is what really counts, and at that, more importantly is who is teaching you.
 
Hey Dark, I caught Mike Abeita's post about 'glassing (absolutly AWESOME!), but I don't have any of those others. Help a brotha out!! ;)
 
I have my stereo sounding pretty good now my only question is alright i blew one of my front 3.5's and i was wondering what kinda speakers i should put up there this time, I do think it would be cool to have all fosgate stuff....... what you think? I have one fosgate and the other is blown so what u think i should do just get another set of those same fosgates, the one blew cause it was out of phase lol.
 
...

a speaker being out of phase will not cause it to blow. Pushing material through it that it wasn't designed to handle at that level will blow it. Same principle as reversing the polarity on a incadescant bulb, it will still light up regardless of polarity.

I have a feeling that even if you get more 3.5's speakers you'll blow them too.

The speakers, whatever size they are, will live a lot longer if you size them and set them up to handle the material you're playing.

Stop wasting money on small, full-range speakers ... either that or cross them over properly, maybe a hi-pass filter set at 500Hz or turn down the volume.
 
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