Another 109 Block Ruined by Detonation

[MCH86GN]

I'm in process of having a spare 109 block rebuilt. This past October I took my other motor out and my engine builder took it apart and had it magnafluxed and the main web is cracked. The bearing was hammered to heck as well and as expected.

Either the block was in this condition when I purchased it as a running motor back in 2010, or it happened as sometime between 2012 and 2015, during that time I only put about 1000 miles on it. Most of those weren't hard miles. I never really beat on it.

EDIT: I had the block on a stand when I originally purchased it, I should have pulled the main caps and inspected the bearings. Huge lesson learned.

I'm sure there are plenty of pictures out there, but I figured another wouldn't hurt.

 

[Nick Micale]

That is the weak point in ANY production V-6 Buick block, and it will fail there regardless of what is done to the block to prevent this from happening at the higher HP levels, and have seen this from 500 HP to 1000 HP.

 

[MCH86GN]

I'm not sure if you're referring to flywheel or rear wheel hp. I had 0 passes with the block. At most a couple of hard pulls with a TE44 and stock IC with alky. Given this information, maybe I'll save up for a TA performance block and not even bother running my 109. Because at a minimum I will be making 500 whp. Waste of time and money building a 109 block.


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[MCH86GN]

That is the weak point in ANY production V-6 Buick block, and it will fail there regardless of what is done to the block to prevent this from happening at the higher HP levels, and have seen this from 500 HP to 1000 HP.

The reason I say detonation, because my car at best was a high 11 second car. Previous pass with different block, but same setup I went 11.88. The guy I bought the motor from, his fastest pass was 11.91.

During the 3 years and 1000 miles I put on the block, my fuel pump started failing. It wouldn't increase proportionally with boost and when I go WOT it would go to 24lbs and then the wastegate would open and boost would drop to 0. In the data I collected though, I never seen any knock. Also my WBO2 sensor went bad and I was getting a similar reaction as with the fuel pump, but I would only get to about 15lbs and the wastegate would open and boost would drop to 0. I never recorded any knock during the time I logged the data with bad WBO2. I believe there was still some detonation during these events.

 

[bison]

How did the mating surfaces of the caps look?


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[MCH86GN]

How did the mating surfaces of the caps look?


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I will find out.

 

[fastblackracing]

Not likely that you did this making high 11 second power without blowing at least 1
head gasket. Even then at that power level it usually does not take a block out.

Normally you need to be making 500 HP or higher and then introduce some real
heavy detonation to do this, and if you are turning higher rpms the damage is more likely
as it will take more hits before you can react and let off the throttle.
At 6000 rpm the cylinder fire 50 times in 1 second, so you have 50 jackhammer hits
when the engine is into heavy detonation before you can lift

Likely the main caps and the block will have evidence of metal transfer as proof.
No metal transfer then it could just be improper assembly.

And heavy detonation will take out a stage block or TA block as well, it will just take a bit more to do it.

 

[MCH86GN]

I'll check for the metal transfer. I had cometic head gaskets and arp studs so I'm not so sure about popping a head gasket. The reason I say this, in 08 I popped a head gasket as a result of my new fuel pump dying. Replaced the gaskets with cometic and arp studs. This was the original block in the car and I took it out in 0 degree weather and detonated. It snapped the crank in half in the oil pan and ruined the block. The block pictured here was a running motor I bought for $600 to replace my original block that got destroyed. I wanted to build a solid 10s block, so I bought a spare and had my engine builder start rebuilding it. Luckily I had already bought a spare 109 to rebuild and didn't have use this block. Again I wanted to built a solid 10s motor. If this can happen at 500hp, then it is truly a waste of time and money to rebuild a 109 block.


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[bison]

@fastblackracing Wow. Major metal transfer even on number one! This engine was ran in the grenade mode repeatedly and likely over a long period of time.


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[bison]

Here's some of a stock short block that was run at 800hp:

This is over 2 years of beating. Only the centers. Only the left side of #2 showing a lot of metal transfer.

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[MCH86GN]

@bison, thanks for posting the pics. I don't have the mains on hand. I ask for some pictures.

 

[Mike T]

Mine started to show a little fretting on the left side of #3 around the 500 hp range. The cause of mine was 10,000 miles of beating it on 93 octane and the stock crank flexing. This time around it's getting a forged crank and some octane so I would expect it to live well north of the 500 HP level.

The upside to using a 109 is that I'm learning what not to do and getting a better handle on my tuning skills before moving up to my stage motor. Break a 109 block get another....break a stage or a TA block and its going to be a lot tougher to replace it.

 

[turbodave231]

Charles,

The #3 cap on your block is fretted badly. Lots of metal transfer. I don't think one event caused this damage. It took repeated events to cause this much damage. I have not yet checked the connecting rods on the Sunnen fixture..........but I think it is a safe bet that they will exhibit some bend and twist. I have seen this before. The crank and rods will go in the trash either way!!

 

[turbodave231]

The 109 block can easily handle 600-650RWHP.

It cannot handle detonation at that HP level!!!! Tune for zero detonation and everything will be good. A TA or Stage block will have problems with detonation. The caps may still move around.

 

[MCH86GN]

Charles,

The #3 cap on your block is fretted badly. Lots of metal transfer. I don't think one event caused this damage. It took repeated events to cause this much damage. I have not yet checked the connecting rods on the Sunnen fixture..........but I think it is a safe bet that they will exhibit some bend and twist. I have seen this before. The crank and rods will go in the trash either way!!

Thanks for clarifying.


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[MCH86GN]

The 109 block can easily handle 600-650RWHP.

It cannot handle detonation at that HP level!!!! Tune for zero detonation and everything will be good. A TA or Stage block will have problems with detonation. The caps may still move around.

I'm not going to a TA or stage block. I said that because of a contradiction.


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[MCH86GN]

Charles,

The #3 cap on your block is fretted badly. Lots of metal transfer. I don't think one event caused this damage. It took repeated events to cause this much damage. I have not yet checked the connecting rods on the Sunnen fixture..........but I think it is a safe bet that they will exhibit some bend and twist. I have seen this before. The crank and rods will go in the trash either way!!

I wasn't sure what was exactly wrong with the short block, but I had wiped a cam lobe and figured at least the bearings were bad. I'm am a little surprised at the damage, because I didn't put 1000 hard miles on it. I tend to believe the short block was in bad shape when I bought it. Unfortunately I didn't have anyone to help me take a look at it and I don't think the owner knew either. Good lesson learned for me. It's a bummer learning things the hard way, but those lessons stick.


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[~JM~]

At the risk of sounding dumb... It almost looks like the block was dropped on the floor with a bolt or stud in that hole.

 

[MCH86GN]

Mine started to show a little fretting on the left side of #3 around the 500 hp range. The cause of mine was 10,000 miles of beating it on 93 octane and the stock crank flexing. This time around it's getting a forged crank and some octane so I would expect it to live well north of the 500 HP level.

The upside to using a 109 is that I'm learning what not to do and getting a better handle on my tuning skills before moving up to my stage motor. Break a 109 block get another....break a stage or a TA block and its going to be a lot tougher to replace it.

I was joking about going to TA performance block. I already have lots of money and my engine builders time invested in my build. The reality for me is that I may never even break the 500hp mark. My car will see lots of cruising time and I won't be running full boost during that time, maybe 16 to 17psi. I will run 93 and alky during cruising.
If I do decide to take it to the track and run 25 or 26 psi with my 6265, I will be running C16. I will have two Turbo Tweak chips, one for 93 and alky and the other C16. I'm hoping in a year or two to upgrade to XFI though and maybe run E85. That's going to be tough, my daughter will be starting college in fall of 2017 and my son is thinking about going back, so money will be really tight.

"The upside to using a 109 is that I'm learning what not to do and getting a better handle on my tuning skills before moving up to my stage motor. Break a 109 block get another....break a stage or a TA block and its going to be a lot tougher to replace it." - This is good thinking IMO. Although I have an L67 block I would like to build, but first I need to get my GN up to snuff.

 

[Mike T]

Here's some of a stock short block that was run at 800hp:

The caps look great for that kind of power. I would have expected to see the typical diagonal wear pattern on the bearings from the stock crank flexing. Are they aluminum rather than tri-metal?